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March 13th, 2023
I’m not sure I’ve ever met anyone who didn’t tell me they had a thought or two about being an entrepreneur. I’ll bet you have too! Internationally recognized facilitator and speaker, Beth Berman sits down with Rob and lays out a handful of myths that can get in the way of your journey!
In this Pocket Sized Pep Talk, you’ll learn:
• Myth #1 Being your own boss sets you free.
• Myth #2. Defining your Core Values and putting them on your website drives culture.
• Myth #3 Retaining “wrong people” in the job is better having no one at all- especially with a super challenging labor market.
• Myth #4 Accountability: Can leaders and managers MAKE people accountable.
• Myth #5 Can’t have measurement in a high-trust environment?
To learn more about this guest:
Rob Jolles (00:01):
I am not sure I’ve ever met anyone who didn’t tell me they had a thought or two about being an entrepreneur. I bet you have too. But let’s have ourselves a pocket size pep talk because there are a handful of myths that can get in the way of your planning. And we’ve got an expert in the field who’s going to clear it all up for us,
Intro (00:19):
A pockets size pep talk, the podcast that can help energize your business and your life with a quick inspiring message. Now, here’s your host, Rob Jolles.
Rob Jolles (00:32):
Today’s guest, Beth Berman, is a certified e o s implementer, an internationally recognized facilitator. And Speaker Beth helps growth-minded leaders get what they want from their businesses and live better lives. Bet’s also a partner at Clark Leadership Group. And in her private coaching, Beth helps leaders become their very best. Great to see you. Welcome to the show, Beth Berman.
Beth Berman (00:57):
Thank you, Rob Jolles.
Rob Jolles (00:59):
You bet. Well, it, it’s nice to have you here and I don’t mess around. I want to dive right in because I want to go at these myths and I’ve got a peek at them. You got five of them, and your first one is being your own boss sets you free. Okay. Yeah. And you’re telling me that’s a myth. Tell, walk me through that one. Why is being your own boss a myth and again, setting you free, why would that be a myth?
Beth Berman (01:26):
Well, people get into business thinking that they’re going to have automatically control of their lives. And what actually happens is that the business starts to own them. The business is running their lives versus them running the business. What starts out as a dream, maybe a couple people, maybe a few, it begins to take some take on some traction starts to grow. They start to get there, and then all of a sudden what worked yesterday isn’t working today, they’re stuck, they’re overwhelmed. They’re what we call hitting the ceiling, and they just can’t break free. Often, they don’t even notice that they’re heal. They’re hitting the ceiling because they’re in such a state of overwhelm, just scrapping day to day, getting one day to the next, trying to keep all the issues under control, and it just gets out of hand.
Rob Jolles (02:23):
Well, congratulations because you just nailed that myth. I lived that myth. I left in April, it’ll be 30 years as an entrepreneur. And when I left Xerox, I wrote the number down. I left because I was on the road 242 nights in one year, and I said, that’s it. I have to get control of my life. I just walked your script because my first year I was out 252 nights and because the same thing, I was sort of panicky and well, I’ve got to take the business while it’s here. And I didn’t know what I was really getting into and I didn’t have the instinct to push back at all. And so the exact reason why I left to become an entrepreneur immediately smacked me in the head.
Beth Berman (03:10):
Right, exactly. We don’t get taught how to become leaders of our own businesses, typically. We just do it. And it’s a matter of strengthening all aspects of the business from getting everybody on the same page, where you’re going with where you’re going and how you actually plan to get there. Having awesome people, having the right data to have, and a sense of what really is working and not working in your business. Having the ability and a culture built around, bringing issues forward, solving them at the root, the right amount of process, not putting straight jackets on people, but the right amount of practice to practice to have consistency and growth and reliability and scale. And then finally, keeping all the circles connected, executing, having everybody on the same page in the right meeting structure with the right goals, all aligned, building towards the feature they want. But that’s a lot that doesn’t get taught to no average entrepreneur.
Rob Jolles (04:14):
It doesn’t. Well, first of all, so anybody listening that doesn’t think that we’re, we’re being cynical here. The greatest thing that ever happened to me was becoming an entrepreneur. So let’s not bury the lead.
Beth Berman (04:26):
Absolutely.
Rob Jolles (04:27):
But that said, you know, are absolutely right. No real manual for many people, and I was one of ’em right before I left, we were kind of walking around walking by the mirror gun. I could do a better job than those folks. And then all of a sudden you’re out there battling and you know, got good days and bad days, you walk by the mirror and go, oh no, that’s the guy. That’s the guy. I have to blame that guy over there. Me. Exactly. The good news is when it things are going nicely, you look in the mirror and go, that guy, that guy,
Beth Berman (04:56):
Right? And that happens for very long enough that you think you’ve got it
Rob Jolles (05:01):
And it changes because no business stays, stays still. All right, let’s run myth two. And this one involves defining your core values and putting them on your website, whether that drives culture or not. Now I’m not messing around the first one. I was playing with you a little bit. I knew my 2 42 and 2 52. This one, I actually really looked at it and went, what’s wrong with putting your core values up on the website? So I’m, I’m not playing around. Help me through that one.
Beth Berman (05:32):
So they were meant to be provocative and or thought provoking. They got me. Yes. I gotcha. Yeah. So defining your core values. Many companies, they hire a consultant to come in and create a bunch of terms that are marketing terms that have nothing to do with what real core values are about. So when you think about core values, they should represent who you are as a company, who starting with who the leadership team is, who are the key leaders, what is that leader set the culture. And you have to be really intentional about that. And often what happens is they hire a consultant, they go maybe through some exercise, they write a bunch of stuff and they put it on the website and they never do anything with it. So the way to drive culture is to get to your real authentic values, not the nice to say things.
(06:25)
I mean, some of my companies have a very common one is G S D and get shit Done is basically that’s an attitude, that’s a set behaviors, whatever. But we want to use those core values, whether they’re they’re PC or not, they have to be really descriptive about the behaviors that we want to see in our organization and then use them to attract people who are a fit. And also to repel people who aren’t going to fit with that. They maybe some great people that would not fit in, especially your or my company. That might be perfectly fine elsewhere. So it’s a matter of systemizing what you’ve gotten real about and communicating it and recognizing people and coaching people up to those behaviors. And when someone can’t get there, that’s a problem. Yeah. Because you want people who fit a glove and then you’ll get more people who fit a glove because they’re happy to be there.
Rob Jolles (07:25):
Yeah, it makes sense actually. And I’m cautionary tale and go, I, I’m really upset going back in time. I’m really reminiscing right now. I remember people telling me, get your core values down where, where’s your three and five of your action plan? And I remember thinking, I’ve got more business than I know what to do with. Why would I want to worry about that right now? I kind of laughed at it. Yeah, you go write your plans, I’m taking care of business. But you wake up one morning and you realize that you really need to have a direction you’re aiming this vehicle at and business isn’t going to fall off the trees. Perhaps it’s not a coincidence that when an entrepreneur first begins, coincidentally there is business. That’s probably why we made that leap. But can you sustain it and Exactly. Yeah. Oh yeah, no. Alright. Alright. Right. You, you’ve swayed me on myth to and now myth three, I’m going to tell you, you don’t have to sway me with you, I just want to hear your version of this because your myth three is retaining wrong people in the job is better than having no one at all. And I think I agree with you on this one, but walk us through that.
Beth Berman (08:47):
Well, especially now in a very challenging labor market, everyone’s looking for people have more options they ever had. It’s still, even with the market even evening out a bit, it’s still a candidate, a job candidate’s market. It’s still, they’re calling the shots, they’re shopping the employers, they’re shopping the individual gigs and jobs and everything else. If we have someone who is a wrong person, the organization in my definition under the e o s or entrepreneurial operating system umbrella, that means they’re a wrong person because they’re not fitting the core values. So someone who is really not be being able to reflect the who we are or the who I am keeping them in the organization is going to be poison in the organization. So even while it’s difficult to find people, I recently did a blog and the opening to it was bummer. I wish I’d waited longer to let go of that person said no one ever. So the point is you, a great organization has to have great people and what are great people made of right people, right seats. People rock your core values. So as someone who is not a fit will eventually poison, they may lower the standards, other people start to react. It causes all kinds of havoc in your organization.
Rob Jolles (10:19):
And the reason why this one I I was lined up with you is because I’m doing a lot of work, I’m going to give ’em a shout out while we’re at it. I’m GI doing a lot of work for a staff to hire company called Pride staff. And so as we work on the case studies and I’m listening to them role play and they’re really getting in into the long-term effects of hiring the wrong person and keeping that person on. And it’s almost like a sports team, what that does to the locker room.
Beth Berman (10:47):
Exactly.
Rob Jolles (10:48):
I never got that as a kid, by the way, Beth. I always thought, well if that superstar’s there, just get him. But my dad would go, he’s not good in the locker room. I’m like, okay. As he can throw a football now. Yeah, they can take the whole team down.
Beth Berman (11:01):
Yeah. And you may not see it right away, but what happens when you do finally make that one good people decision and let go of a person who’s not a fit, all of a sudden everyone around them will come into congratulate you and tell you how long they’ve been waiting for it.
Rob Jolles (11:20):
Yeah. And the long-term effects we’re talking about, I mean, I’m mentioning a locker room talking about morale, we’re talking about potential lawsuits. We never know what kind of absolutely issues we’re getting into. And you’re right, long-term effects, it can actually shift the culture of an organization. I’m not sure, I mean you can probably talk me into one, but I’m looking at this and I’m not sure if there’s a more important issue than getting the right people in the right positions when you’re running a company. I mean, you have one that’s bigger than that. I can’t come up with one now.
Beth Berman (11:53):
No, I mean I think there’s so many things that are important, but great companies are made up of great people and managing that human energy is the real job of a leader. And depending on what level that leader is, some leaders want to be kind of hands off and doing the big relationships, big dreams, but getting the person who’s in the business, we call that an integrator to be able to drive that and cultivate that kind of culture when you’ve got great people all pulling in the same direction. Who was it who said this? Was it Lindsay on or Collins? One of ’em did. You can beat any business at any time against any competition and you’ve got everybody pulling in the same direction.
Rob Jolles (12:39):
Yeah, yeah. Well, let’s stray out of the myth world a little bit and just stay here for a second. Cause I think that’s a really good point. What advice do you have for people? I mean, sometimes it’s not the wrong person, but we see potential. So I’m going back to my sports analogy and I’m saying I don’t have the fastest widget person on the floor, but I’ve got an athlete, I’ve got somebody I think I can train up. So if you’re talking to leaders right now about managing people who aren’t hitting home runs right now, but they’re hitting singles and doubles, what advice would you give them
Beth Berman (13:18):
If they’re the right kind of person and you can train ’em up in time, in time for the big game, then that’s absolutely a win. You can’t create people, you can’t change people’s human nature. If they’re not a fit, they’re never going to be a fit. So you can coach, they sure you can educate them on what you are and who you are and they can step up to a degree, but if they’re really contrary to who you are, you’re never going to get ’em there. So when you’ve got someone who is a fit, that’s gold. The training for how to do, or most of us aren’t rocket scientists or brain surgeons. The training for getting them up to speed is really a matter of can you get them up to speed? I say in time for the big game, in time for when you need them to be proficient and what do you need to do? What’s the R O I on getting that person to a level where they can be an major performer and still be feeding that wonderful kind of energy in the organization that is your culture.
Rob Jolles (14:23):
Yeah, great point. And I just want people to hear that because it actually has been sort of a pet peeve of mine. I’m 13 years volunteering, helping people who are in career transition. And one of the things that frustrates me just so much is, particularly when I’m trying to place salespeople, is a company that says, well, I like this person, Beth Berman. And she certainly seems like she’s got some great skills, but she’s never worked in our particular industry. She’s never sold washing machines. She’s simply sold typewriters or wait that come from this is my Xerox days. Let’s freshen that example up a little bit. Ok, she’s only sold printers,
Beth Berman (15:10):
That’s a real refresh there, Rob.
Rob Jolles (15:12):
She’s only sold laptops. Where do you want mainframes? Where do you want me to go with this? But I happen to say, and people get offended by this, but I happen to think product knowledge and sometimes just that knowledge base, it’s a little overrated. Yeah. It’s not that I don’t want somebody who’s really smart, although I will tell you I don’t want somebody too smart that that’s not that they can rub customers the wrong way. I want somebody who’s smart, but I’m looking for that person who can bond with another individual. Exactly. Communicate with another individual, as you said, sort of had those values and those morals and my goodness, I’ll teach ’em whatever antiquated product. Exactly. You walk on my list, but that I can do. Okay. It’s just the other parts, the parts you’re describing, Beth, those are kind of tough to teach. Loyalty is tough to teach.
Beth Berman (16:04):
Yeah.
Rob Jolles (16:05):
Can you teach it? I’m not even sure. It’s teachable.
Beth Berman (16:07):
It’s got to be in the person and you’ve got to be cultivating it by having open, honest conversations where expectations are clearer.Your expectations. Their expectations.
Rob Jolles (16:20):
All right. We now return you to your myths. We go to myth four and it’s accountability. Can leaders and managers make people accountable?
Beth Berman (16:29):
So what do you think?
Rob Jolles (16:31):
Can leaders and manage it Well, because you’re messing with me, I would immediately say boohoo, oh, of course we can, but I’m not so sure that’s where you’re going. So I’m going to say, no, you can’t. But my instinct would be, yes you can.
Beth Berman (16:46):
Okay. So if you have a right person in the right seat, you can create the environment for them to be accountable. It comes to leading and managing people in such a way that they can become accountable. So the leadership is about leading them. It’s more on the business management’s more in the business. It’s about creating the openings, creating an opening where nature pours a vacuum and allowing them to fill that vacuum and step up in whether that be a seat or function in the organization or a job, or whether that be a goal that you’re setting for them or an expectation that you’re setting for them. So that that’s more on the leadership side. And there are communications requirements that go around that as well, and ways of making sure that those expectations are clear and that you’re coaching people through all of this. But on the management side, it’s really setting clear, specific smart goals, being on the same page as to what done looks like for each goal as to timeframes, as to metrics, all that kind of stuff.
(18:05)
And providing a big part of management, especially in this marketplace, aside from giving them whatever kind of hybrid or virtual work arrangement or whatever people are demanding these days, is their experience in the company and what are they getting? Are they growing? Are they getting the leadership, not leadership? And are they getting the training and development that they need? Are they being given opportunities to grow or are they having opportunities to work at a higher level with better people internally, externally? Are they able to, how closely can you match where they want to be with what you can provide? So there’s a lot of that. And it used to be viewed management as a, you know, had a boss, he was the manager and it was a one-way street, but it’s a two-way world and it’s very easy for our people to shop other opportunities. And some people think at a certain age that stops if from I, I’ve been in recruiting and job search coaching as well, and where there’s a will, there’s a way you get noticed, you show up in a big way. All that stuff,
Rob Jolles (19:28):
You know, had me at communication.
Beth Berman (19:31):
Yeah. I should have stopped there.
Rob Jolles (19:32):
Well, as soon as you said that, I’m like, yeah, everything is just feeding into that word that you just said. And if you think about it, and I’m going back in my days, I had managers that were tougher managers and easier managers and friendlier managers, but the worst managers I ever had, and I really can only think of sort of one and a half. But yeah, we’re the ones with that. I never knew where they stood. I never knew where I stood and paranoia. And it wasn’t just me and a paranoia begins to set in and I, it’s like a cancer. It was terrible. If I’m not doing a good job, I don’t really, let’s get at it early and let me know. Most people are reasonable, but you don’t want people guessing what the manager’s thinking.
Beth Berman (20:19):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, this is good. Yeah.
Rob Jolles (20:23):
Yeah. Also I, I’ll tell you that I wish managers curious how you feel about this, because I coached a lot of basketball and I played a lot, but that didn’t make me a great coach. I had to learn that. And one of the things that when I started getting better as a coach and then better as a manager, I applied the same principles was it wasn’t my way of the highway, this is the way I coach everybody. It was assessing the talent that I had and realizing that different people get coached different ways where in the book sometimes you’ll see where you’re going to got to treat everybody the same actually. Now there’s a lot happens behind the closed door, but I’m trying to figure out what motivates people, what inspires people. And sometimes people will be inspired by a mythical kind of kick in the rear end and others will be devastated by it. But just being that, being flexible.
Beth Berman (21:23):
So I have another thought for you on that. And I think a lot of companies miss this point. A lot of leadership teams and leaders with what you just said. You can’t create a feeling of being recognized and being appreciated if you’re not doing it in a way that the person can receive it. So there are some people, first of all, I am totally an advocate of, and even systemizing, and I don’t mean by just putting it in a system, but making sure that you’re reminded over and over to thank people for the big and the little things to appreciate people for great performance, great effort, great behavior, whatever it is. But it’s got to be in a way that they can receive it. And this is something many, many companies miss. So some people are going to want loud, gongs, whistles, banners, the sales types typically they want to parade around or we want to parade around for when I was in sales.
(22:33)
But many people just want a quiet tap on the back, a text, an emoji, whatever. It is so important to create a culture of appreciation because when you think about it, if you do that at the leadership level and you do it appropriately where people can receive it in a way that’s comfortable for them, not the same for all, and then they do it with their people and they do it with their people, imagine lather, rinse, repeat. Imagine what that starts to look like in an organization. And I’m not talking about being pandering, I’m talking about real recognition for real work or real effort.
Rob Jolles (23:13):
If you tunnel into some pocket-sized pep talks, it’s probably one of the biggest topics that I land on because I so agree with you. First of all, statistically it’s off the charts. The number of people that leave due to a lack of recognition and managers are in the other corner going, well, all they’re going to want is more money. And then when come review time, they’re going to be wanting a big bump. Well, that also indicates the manager has no clue as to how to give recognition because we’re very specific with the recognition. Recognition. I’m not telling you, you are just wonderful. We’re being very specific. But also I, I keep it in my brief.
(23:57)
Another old school attack, my briefcase, I met my laptop bag. I don’t know what’s folks, I came off a red eye last night. Somehow I’ve going to put on a orange leisure suit when this is over, but I keep in that laptop bag. 25 ways to recognize people that does not involve money. You just gave a couple pat on the back means something to people being invited to a meeting that maybe they wouldn’t normally go to as to show you appreciation means something to people. Let’s get more creative with this. Let’s stop being so stingy. Exactly. And learn how to do it and you nail it, including you. What else can we do to make this great? And eliminating that boy if you’re only, which is just death of recognition.
Beth Berman (24:48):
And if you want to build co culture, going back to where we started, tie it to your core values, reinforce the core values when you’re giving recognition. This was great. You really got done this time or you really were humble, confident, or whatever it is.
Rob Jolles (25:06):
Yep, yep, yep. That project.
Beth Berman (25:09):
You nailed it. Yeah.
Rob Jolles (25:11):
Yeah. You and your typewriter. Okay. By the way, when I sold for Xerox, I was really good at selling typewriters, but that tells you when I was selling for Xerox, I sold other things too. But the typewriters were easy.
Beth Berman (25:26):
I’m with you. I’m not going there with you.
Rob Jolles (25:29):
I’m dragging you there with me. Alright, myth number five, thanks for saving me. Myth number five can have measurements in a high trust environment, huh? Let’s hear your answer to that one.
Beth Berman (25:42):
Okay. So many people are afraid to measure people to put scorecards, dashboards, whatever you want to call ’em, because they feel, people will think that the leaders or managers don’t trust them. The bottom line is you can have measurement in a high trust environment. People who want to do good work and complete work and on time work want to be recognized for that. And a scorecard or a measurement is going to be a way of validating that. Also the idea that you measurement makes us too, maybe younger people don’t want measurement. Younger people want to be appreciated in as many ways as they can and identified and see their impact. And another way that measurement can help is by actually showing the impact of what they did. So they may have produced six widgets in your example, but maybe they did it in record time and that enabled the company to do something else.
(26:56)
So the company was able to earn something or do something or achieve something. Whatever it is, you can take it from its most minuscule basic task level all the way through to impact and to organizational impact as well as external impact. So in e o s we have seven truths of what we call the measurement or the scorecard. There are many other truths around it, but the idea is why would we be afraid of measuring when we don’t measure, when we don’t have correct data to give us a pulse on what’s working and we never get to smoke out the issues, create a culture where issues are brought forward early without shoot the messenger, without the data. We can’t course correct along the way and we need to be looking at that data regularly. So measurement is a really important aspect of getting real about our business. Well they kind of doing a good job. Well are they really right? Or maybe we should give them some recognition.
Rob Jolles (27:59):
Right? And maybe that measurement you speak of also will reduce that paranoia that I spoke of, which is exactly how do I know if I’m doing this well enough if we provide a measurement and we can’t measure everything, but man, you’d be surprised how much we can measure. I mean, people look at selling and they go, can you really measure the processes? Oh yes you can. Yes you can. Yes you can. And we have an old saying that when you have a process, you have a way of measuring what you’re doing and when you can measure it, you can fix it. Exactly. Yeah. But I think that’s also really good just in terms of that maybe that skittish employee that’s a little uncomfortable. And again, remember we’re shaping the shot here, providing measurements to everyone. But I would think particularly that individual who’s a little unsure and wants to please exactly I’d love to have that employee working for me, but we have to manage them the right way.
Beth Berman (28:57):
And in that management you can inspire a little bit of competition between people and also you get a clearer pulse on your business. Yeah.
Rob Jolles (29:09):
Hey, I have a myth on my own. I’m a junior Beth Berman. I wrote my own myth. You see, I think I was somewhere over Topeka last night and I came up with a myth because I learned this one, you’ll never have to worry about reporting to a boss again. And that for me was a huge myth of being an entrepreneur because usually we have clients. Exactly. And those clients become bosses. So I went from having one boss at Xerox to about 42 bosses and just different organizations. But I smile now because I really did think as I was walking out and going and getting ready to open up.
Beth Berman (29:51):
No more bosses,
Rob Jolles (29:52):
That’s it. I’m boss free. No, that was a myth that I happened to experience. Beth, tell me a little bit about your business.
Beth Berman (30:03):
So I am a certified e o s implementer and e o s is the entrepreneurial operating system. It’s a system, a set of integrated tools. It’s not a tech system though. There is software to support it. It’s a set of integrated tools that over 17,000 companies are actually using the full system with the help of an implementer. And hundreds of thousands are using tools. But the idea is it focuses on three things, vision, traction, healthy, so vision, getting everybody leadership team first, and then the whole company ultimately on the same page with where you’re going and how you plan to get there. Then the traction is about actually executing in such a way that you are moving towards chipping away at that future vision and you’re executing with discipline and accountability. So everything is pulling in the same direction. And then the third element that we focus on, or one of our three uniques is healthy.
(31:04)
We’ve been talking about management and leadership and business. You can’t get anywhere without a healthy, open, honest team. You may perform well, but it’s going to be drudgery, it’s going to be miserable if you want better business, better life. That’s where that comes from. So I believe, and my colleagues tend to believe, and a colleague of mine, Jonathan Smith actually coined an expression around this. I believe every great leader needs three things. A system. So we’ve got e O s A peer group, I run one, thank you Ron one and a coach, because if you think about it, you’ve got this operating system to help you run your business instead of your business running. You then a great leader. Though we want to be open and honest, there’s still individual skills, issues, development that we want to do and we need to do that in a safe place. So a peer group and then a coach to become your best as a leader and as a human because we’re embodied in one body and it’s all sides of us. So it makes life better too.
Rob Jolles (32:14):
Beautiful. You have any mentors that kind of help shape this because you’re up to a lot of things here.
Beth Berman (32:21):
Yeah, I’m up to a lot of things. So one of my mentors was Jonathan Smith, who I mentioned. He was one of the first ever implementers, one of Gino Wickman, the founder of E O S’s first clients. And he’s actually mentored other mentors, believe it or not, when I was a leader in a recruiting firm, the owner of that recruiting firm mentored me. It’s no longer in existence. I would say also, believe it or not, my husband, my husband has taught me a way of looking at life, at reaching even further than I was reaching and living life in such a way that we’re doing good and doing well.
Rob Jolles (33:12):
You were a blessed human being that’s the right kind of partner to have. So good answer as we say the business. Good answer. Alright, how did people get ahold of you?
Beth Berman (33:24):
So I am on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in growth DC is my little handle on LinkedIn. My business number is 2 4 5 6 0 8 9 4 6 8 9 46 translates at least in the old days on phones to you win. It’s a nod to my dad who used to say, you’re a pearl, you’re a winner. Good. So there’s that or Beth.berman@eosworldwide.com.
Rob Jolles (33:55):
Okay. And we’ll put that up on our site as well. Listen, I thoroughly enjoyed this and I was really thinking we’re going to talk about entrepreneurship. This should be interesting. It was beyond interesting. It was really fascinating and I’m grateful that they have had you on the show and just thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.
Beth Berman (34:18):
I’m always grateful to have you in my world. I love everything you write and most things you say
Rob Jolles (34:25):
Inside story folks inside story. Anyway. All right, well thank you Beth Berman, and folks, we’ll do it again as well as we can next time. Until then, stay safe.
Outro (34:39):
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy today’s show, please rate and recommend it on iTunes, outcasts, wherever you get your podcast. You can also get more information on this show and rob@jolles.com.