As humans, we’ve all gone through times of struggle. Whether it’s feeling frustrated in our job, caught in a toxic relationship, or besieged by bad health, life can set any number of traps to constrain us. Author and certified executive coach Amy Eliza Wong sits down with Rob and talks about taking these challenging times in and believing, truly believing, that things will not just work out, but provide valuable lessons for the future.
Originally Published: October 24, 2022
Episode Notes
In this Pocket Sized Pep Talk, you’ll learn:
- That we make choices that are in direct opposition to what we really want.
- Process moves you can exercise to feel free, whole and at peace on a regular basis.
- You use the word purpose a lot. What does it mean to be on purpose?
- What it means to “live on purpose.”.
- How to cope with “imposter syndrome.”
- How you can be more bold and fearless.
- How can I feel at ease with so much uncertainty?
To learn more about this guest:
Guest author’s email: amy@alwaysonpurpose.com
Guest Website https://www.alwaysonpurpose.com/
SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.facebook.com/amyelizawong
https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyelizawong/
https://www.instagram.com/amyelizawong/
Rob Jolles (00:00):
As humans, we’ve all gone through times of struggle. Whether it’s feeling frustrated in our job, caught in a toxic relationship, or besieged by bad health, life can set any number of traps to constrain us. Well, let’s have ourselves a pocket sized pep talk because today’s guests believes these moments serve a meaningful purpose. And she’s going to tell us how
Introduction (00:22):
A pockets size pep talk, the podcast that can help energize your business and your life with a quick inspiring message. Now, here’s your host, Rob Jealous.
Rob Jolles (00:36):
Today’s guest, Amy Wong, is a certified executive coach who was devoted more than 20 years to the study and practice of helping others live and lead on purpose. She works with some of the biggest names in tech and other transformational leadership development and internal communication strategies to executives and teams around the world. Her new book is Living on Purpose Five, deliberate Choices to Realize Fulfillment and Joy. And she’s with us today. Glad to have you with us, Amy.
Amy Wong (01:07):
It’s a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Rob.
Rob Jolles (01:10):
Well, it’s a pleasure to have you here. So let’s dive right in and with you, I want to start with your healthy optimism, believing that there’s always a way forward. Now, I’m going to tell you something, it’s going to be a battle of the Titans today because I’m a positive thinker too. So I was looking forward to having you on here, but talk me through that a little bit. Choosing to believe that no matter what’s going on, that it’s going to work out in the end. That one looks good on paper. For some of us it comes a little more naturally. But how do you process something like that?
Amy Wong (01:44):
Well, the way I see it, all of us want to feel good, and that’s just a primal human desire. Directive is to feel good. We make choices because we think it’s going to make us feel good. Everything that we do is in service to ultimately feeling better than we do right now. And so that’s a desire for each and every one of us. And what dictates how we feel largely is our chosen focus, and we get to choose what we focus on. Whatever we focus on, whatever channel of our mind that we’re on, it’s really going to dictate how we feel. It’s very much like watching a tv. So if you want to sit down and watch TV because you just want to chill out, and you’re like, oh, it’s been a tough day, and you turn on the TV and up pop’s horror, you’re like, ah, I don’t want to watch that.
(02:33)
It makes me feel horrible. What do you do, you change a channel, it really quickly. Its like, oh, the anxiety, it’s awful. And so you change it to something that, ugh, that’s actually quite pleasant. And so we do this everywhere else in our lives, and we’re somewhat discerning about our inputs, depending on what we focus on, is going to largely determine how we feel. And so we get to pick the channel of our mind. And so life is incredibly complex. And at the same time, simple, when you think about what this is all about and this whole existence of that, we live in this, it’s all predicated on duality, meaning we can’t have light without dark. We can’t have growth without constriction. We can’t have birth without death duality. And so to think that we are always to think that there’s only supposed to be living in the good stuff is not accurate because life is filled with all experiences, and we can choose to decide that we grow on purpose and then we grow on accident.
(03:44)
And it’s the stuff that’s not chosen, that wasn’t planned for that was unexpected. The failures, the mishaps, the disappointments, those are, that is such ripe, fertile ground for growth, and it always is. And so instead of pushing against the things that are unwanted saying, it’s not working out for me, we can look at it and say, actually, I’m growing from this too. And this is a choice. Is it a truth? No, it’s a choice. And why do I choose it? Because again, my primal directive is to feel good and to choose otherwise would be the opposite.
Rob Jolles (04:21):
And something that I’m listening to you that I noticed you do, and that I really is the words that you choose. So a lot of times we speak so negatively to ourselves, so we go, oh, you know, look at, you lost that deal again, where I think very comfortably, whether you’re an unconscious competent or a conscious competent unconsciously, you keep swapping words. You keep putting in, well, I learned something from that. Well, I got a little smarter today. Well I’m going to be ready the next time. And it’s the same event, the same situation, only a different set of words you do that very naturally. Can that be taught?
Amy Wong (05:02):
I think so. And I absolutely think so. I have a 14 year old son, and I have another child who’s nine, and both of my children, I’m sticklers on this. I’ll listen to them talk about what’s going on for them, about what’s true. It’s like, oh, I can’t do it I’m so stupid. And it’s like, wait, stop, stop, stop. And we model as parents what, what’s possible. I know, and I share with them, look, your words create your world. And if you’re not discerning about the words that you choose, then you’re not going to be very discerning about what you create for yourself. And so I absolutely think it can be learned for sure. I mean, the brain, it’s very, it molds and shapes to our experiences, and it’s neuroplasticity. So I very much believe that we can absolutely take this on as a way of being.
Rob Jolles (05:57):
Well, I thought it certainly makes sense to me. I’ve actually, I’m 12 years now I volunteer for and help people who are in career transition. And I’ve given a bunch of presentations in that area. And where I’ve dipped into this topic of yours is I actually will bring a newspaper with me front page of the Washington Post, and I’ll put it up there on the screen, or I’ll show it to ’em, and I’ll say, all right, pick one because none. Because if it bleeds, it leads, there’s not going to be nothing really good on this front page, but you tell me something positive, you put it a positive spin on that. And sometimes I remember nine 11 was a struggle for a lot of people because there was, for people like us it was hard to spin that one and go, well, I, I’ll tell you something good to camera, but no, it threw us because I can’t think of anything good. No. But most of what goes on, we really can look at it through two different lenses. And just from one amateur to the expert, I actually love working with a newspaper, just having people practice. Okay, tell me something about that. Tell me something about this, because I’ve got a headstart. It’s going to be negative. Yeah. And it helps.
Amy Wong (07:06):
Yeah. Well, and another way to do this is like, what’s the gift in this? What can we extract from this for growth, for a growth reason? And the reason I am so certain personally that we can see the good in everything is because in every moment of our life, we look back at our past and there might have been really hard moments. There might have been tragedies and traumas, there might have been missteps and failures. But there comes a point in our now moment where we look back at that and go, gosh, that was awful. But if it wasn’t for that, I wouldn’t have this. And I wouldn’t have done and da, and I actually wouldn’t have this skill, and I wouldn’t be this person and I wouldn’t be the person I am today. And so for everything that we experience, there comes to be a point in the future, which usually is a now moment for pest stuff that we can look back with appreciation.
(08:03)
And so that happens with everything. And the whole thing about nine 11, I agree that what’s the gift in that? And so my thinking is for the little things like the little tragedies, the little missteps like, oh, I lost my keys. Oh, I’m late for this meeting. It’s really quick to be like, maybe I’m going to miss in a car accident. Maybe we can come up with interesting, fun ways to reframe quickly and be in appreciative instead of resistant. But it’s little stuff. And so to the degree of the intensity and the significance of the tragedy and the pain and the contrast, I think is really going to dictate the time that’s required in order to get to that place where we can look back and see where the gift is. And so it’s like weight training. And if I’m going to lift up a two pound weight, no, I could probably do that.
(08:51)
But if I want to go bench press 200 pounds, I can’t just do that right now. I got to go train for that. So it’s where I think the gift of time and life experience really adds to it, because at some point in this is hard to say and hard to consider, but at some point we very well will look back and go, that was awful, and here’s why we’re smarter and here’s why we’re more connected and here’s what we know and here’s what we do. And we’re this kind of people now today as a result.
Rob Jolles (09:24):
Well, I agree with you, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat down with people in career transition who are really just feeling awful, particularly those who spend a little too much time there. But most people who spend time there and I tell ’em, I wish I could take you in the future. I’m going robbed from the future. Because you’re going to look and say, that was a key turning point in my life that really brought me this person or this connection or this company or this message, which you would not find any other way. All right. Lemme shift a little bit cause yeah, got another piece that I hear. And I’m curious as to your reaction. I hear a lot of people who are a little superstitious about being positive. They actually use the word, well, I don’t want to jinx myself. Sure. So they’ll say things, I’ll say, how did the interview go? Oh, I don’t want to jinx myself. Or, they’re prepping for this, or they’re trying for that. I have an opinion on there, but you are my guest. I would love your opinion first. What do you tell people? Because I think I was that guy who seemed to confuse superstition with other things. Yeah. He helps use holding back. Cause they don’t want want to jinx themselves.
Amy Wong (10:38):
Yeah. No, this is such a fun conversation. It, it comes up quite a bit. And it has to do with the power of expectation. And I think it really, I love how you frame it as superstition. I tend to think of this as a way of guarding and protecting ourselves from disappointment. And it’s interesting. Think I wonder if this is just a personal choice. And I’ve really played with and have felt out many of these options. And what I have landed on feels this is what feels the best. And again, the reason I’m saying this feels the best, this is so important because everything we’re after is for a feeling. So I, I’m going to choose the thing that feels the best. And so what feels the best to me is to just expect it. Because that feeling of expect is like, Ooh, this is going to be so great.
(11:28)
And I remember back in college my best friend and we had two mantras she would always share with each other. And mine was, if you want it bad enough, just expect it. And that’s just how I’ve operated. And it feels so much better than being in this doubtful space. And so here’s the thing, but the power of my expectation, and there’s research behind this, which I think is so fascinating, when we into visualize we, there’s a bigger chance, there’s a much more apt to walk into that future that we are expecting versus hoping or even just doubting. Doubting for sure doesn’t going to get us there. It’s kind of those professional athletes when they sit and they want to go through that event. Like, okay, let me visualize myself doing the free throw or doing this race in a perfect way. We know that they’re more apt to do that. Their body will come in alignment. So it’s all the same thing. It feels better now if it doesn’t come to be, then that’s where we pull in this last part of the conversation, which is, and now you pay it forward and it’s like, oh, there must be a good reason. There must be working out for me somehow because maybe there’s something better that’s queuing up for that’s going to. And so just, again, it’s a way of optimism, but it just feels so much better.
Rob Jolles (12:56):
Yeah, you’re a hundred percent with you. A lot of times this comes in not after something, but before, while we’re trying fighting for something, while we want something. And what I tell people is I don’t sugarcoat it at my strategies to put the cards on the table. Cause I love this phrase and I tell ’em, listen, because they say, I don’t want to get my hopes up. And I tell them, I do want you to get your hopes up. Yeah. First of all, if you go in there hopeful it, even if it’s two makes you 2% more effective, you’re not going to lose points because you’re going in there confident and hopeful rather than so protective and guarded. But the phrase I’ve always liked is that there is a penalty for hope and the penalty is disappointment, but let’s put it on the table. So I’m not going to sugarcoat and go, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Yes, you are right. There will be a penalty to this and it might be disappointment, but you’re going to feel that disappointment regardless. Why diminish your performance as a way of protecting yourself? Because it’s certainly not going to help. And I think just explaining that rather than avoiding going, well, LA it’s okay. Just say, yeah, I get it. But rationally, when we look at this thing, it’s okay to hope. We need the hope.
Amy Wong (14:21):
Yes. It is the most life giving emotion hope I just, oh, it is. I honestly think it’s one of the most, I love that. I love it as a feeling. It feels so much better than doubt. So much better than, and it’s so much more fruitful than doubt. And I love how you put that. And I would say truly, if we want to make the most out of this life experience, it is a beautiful, brilliant combination of being hopeful, if not expectant, of this amazing future state or this desire that you have. And maybe it’s not so much the vision, but at least the feeling state that you want to live into holding that. But then being ao, okay, with what comes recognizing that it’s always going to be in service to where you’re headed. And so the tool in my book I living on purpose, I have a tool that I, it’s called Painting Forward.
(15:10)
And it very much speaks to what we were talking about earlier, because what we’re doing here is really connected. And that tool is in our now moment, if we are dealing with a crap situation, a shitty moment, and because we all have them, we think of it as crap. But the fact is it’s not, it’s manure. So what we do is in a crap moment, you’re like, wait, hold on. If this is not crappy. But it’s really just manure and painting forward is, okay, well let’s just imagine that my future state, this vision I have for myself, what, two years from now, three years, whatever. Let’s imagine it come, goes, it just becomes real. So now I’m going to explain to myself how and why this was on purpose to get me there. And that is such a fun exercise because it will immediately transform this experience. So if we deal with disappointment because it’s a failed expectation or a failed hope experience that we’ve had, we can just paint it forward and be like, yeah, okay, well then that must mean it’s actually, there’s something better and it’s going to do this and I’m going to abate. And it’s ultimately going to be even better than I realize It’s a choice. And it’s It’s a better feeling choice than to doubt. Yeah.
Rob Jolles (16:22):
So listen, for those who are listening right now, living on purpose, five deliberate choices to realize fulfillment and joy. I got a sales book I’m pretty proud of, but it doesn’t necessarily make you feel better in the morning. What a wonderful book to buy and to read and to lean on, because the curse of some books is when you say, I got a book for everybody. Sometimes the publishers go running for the hills, but I’m trying to figure out who would not benefit from a book like this. Is it an au, is there an audiobook on it?
Amy Wong (16:57):
Yes. And I narrated it. Woo. Yeah. So I get to do the audiobook. Excellent. This is very fun.
Rob Jolles (17:03):
Yes, I narrated a few of my books and I’ve always mentioned that if they ever took the outtake of the F bombs that come from Rob, who never uses a bad word on the air or professionally in the pit, you’d realize Rob does know these words. <laugh> an audio book. We’ll bring them out of you every now and then. Well, that’s great. So we got an audiobook ebook, a regular book I’m assuming. Yeah, of course. Print. That’s terrific. And we can get that at Amazon or any online books,
Amy Wong (17:33):
Wherever books are sold on Amazon, you can get the audio, the Kindall and the printed book on Amazon as well. So that’s excellent. Tends to be the easiest.
Rob Jolles (17:41):
Yeah. Perfect. So when you’re done listening to the podcast, you got something else to listen to while you’re taking that walk or run or wherever you’re heading out to, but we’re not done yet. You used the word purpose a lot. You like that word. So, but I use it one way. Well, I said that on purpose. You have a kind of deeper plan there. So what does it mean to be on purpose in your world here?
Amy Wong (18:09):
Yeah, absolutely. And appreciate the question because like you, I tend to use it more as an adverb than a noun. And while I love the noun version and many of my conversations are around purpose as a noun, really what’s most important and exciting for me to focus on is the way of being, which on purpose is. And so when you ask, well, what does it mean to be on purpose? That essentially means that you’ve decided to wake up and be in the driver’s seat of your own life, recognizing that every moment really is a choice point where we get to choose to either react to the stuff around us, which most of us are doing unconsciously, replaying patterns, deploying habits, survival mechanisms, because that’s just the way our brains and bodies kind of program themselves to operate or respond. Now, what does respond actually respond means to be active, to really harness choice in a powerful way, recognizing that I get to choose something that’s either going to serve me or not versus react, which is just, I mean, think about the word react.
(19:20)
It’s a react act that I’m going to deploy. And so it’s not really on the driver’s seat. So when we can harness choice there, that’s when we start to thrive. And it’s not so much choice at the level of action, meaning right, though, I’m going to choose to end early today and go for a run. And because these are healthy choices, that’s important, but it’s not so much the actions that are really going to determine our thriving or not it’s choice at the level of perception. So very much going back to what you were saying, it’s like how is it that you can choose to see that it’s working out for you? Well, I’m like, that’s a choice. It’s a full-on choice. And so these choices that we make at that level of perception, what I’m going to choose to perceive, how I choose to perceive it, how I choose to interpret what I’m perceiving, what I choose to believe about what I’m interpreting and perceiving, what I ch then therefore choose to think, say, and do. And so it’s choice harnessed at that level that truly is the unlock. And so if we can get to the base level axioms, what are those choices that will truly free us into a life of freedom and possibility, joy and just purpose and meaning. That’s why I wrote the book, because there are some five pretty basic perceptual shifts that we can make that will unlock us into this to be free, to be spacious, to be connected, to be loving, to be all the things that we inherently really want. Yeah.
Rob Jolles (20:59):
What a, that must have been a lot of fun to write this book. Sometimes we grind it out a little bit, but this clearly is a book that seems to have found you didn’t find, it seems to have come after you was was an epiphany. Was there a moment where you went, okay, I got to write this
Amy Wong (21:18):
Thing? Yeah. Oh, I love this. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for that. And that does feel to be true because I really feel like the book wrote itself, and it really feels like somewhat of just really truly a gift to have been a part of this process. So I’ve been coaching for over a decade, and I have coached so many amazing, beautiful, brilliant individuals from all walks of life. Right now, I’m primarily focused with leaders and teams and executives. But throughout the 10 years plus, it’s, it’s been a whole wide gamut of individuals. And it was around 2014, the process that I was beginning to really work through and take clients through to really free them from self-imposed limitation and sabotage and into a true authentic life that they really created and wanted to own for themselves. It was working and I thought, okay, I’ve got something here.
(22:12)
And it was like this, I have to make this available to many because the only people that are getting this are the people I can actually work with. And so it was frustrating to me that was, I was limited in my ability to help. And so here was just so cool, Rob, I knew and knew it was not time to write in because I was in the process of gathering all of the stories and the case studies and the research, oh my goodness. The research. And when I was getting certified in conversational intelligence, because another massive pa, just big passion of mine is all things communication, because it’s this medium in which everything is happening. And so if we can get this right, oh my gosh, again, we, there’s so much possible. So I’m in the midst of certification and I am just eating, drinking.
(23:00)
I’m just so enthralled. And when I learn about the neuroscience of rejection, it was as if I can imagine, it sounds like a champagne cork like pop. That’s it. And what happened was everything that I had been theorizing, or at least hypothesizing, the missing piece was the neuroscience of rejection in order for me to help make sense of why and how is it that we concretize the limiting beliefs that we do. And all of a sudden, rob everything that I have ever loved and was passionate about and have done all of a sudden made sense. And the, I’m like, okay, I know exactly what this book needs to be now. And that was in 2016, and I still knew, and yet I’m not quite ready to write it because I’m still in the process of getting those stories. And it wasn’t until 2019 that I’m like, that’s it, I’m ready.
(23:52)
Let’s do this. And then boom, it became it right at the end of 2019, I was like, ah, this is it. I know what to do. Sat down, got the outline, here we go. Beginning of 2020 got serious and it’s happened and it’s bubbling up, and then the world shut down. And that was where it was like, oh my gosh, all my travel is canceled, all my workshops, all my keynotes, all the, huh, I’m not entertaining anymore. We’re not traveling. And it literally took the entire year of 2020 to put this book together, but it was somewhat effortless. It just flowed.
Rob Jolles (24:26):
Oh, what’s interesting about that, and maybe, I don’t know if you do it the same way I do, but for some people listening, they go, well, wait a minute. Now that you don’t have the travel and everything, you got all this time to write. But for me, and I don’t know if you’re the same as me, I wrote most of my books in the air. I don’t like them at my house. Everybody’s bothering me at my house, totally <laugh>, my son is the airport hotel and the airplane. He take that away from a writer, and I’m like, I don’t know what to do at home.
Amy Wong (24:58):
That is hilarious. I always laugh. I’m like, as much as people hate work, travel, and I’m like, I love it because I get so much heads down, work done. I’m like, I pump out the best articles. I pump out the best. Yes. It’s like, so I’m right there with you. But I think in this case, because it was just such a weird aberration, it was an anomaly, I mean was we didn’t quite know what to do with ourselves. I’m like, whoop, I guess I just, right. So my kids were so great. I said, I told them, I was like, you guys, I’m going to be super boring on the weekends. I’m going to be not going to be the fun mom you’re used to. And they’re like, that’s okay, mom. Just make millions of dollars and spend it on us.
Rob Jolles (25:36):
And make us lunch. Get the lunches and the dinners going. You can write whatever you need to write.
Amy Wong (25:41):
That’s right. That’s right. Just make sure our clothes are clean and then we’re fine.
Rob Jolles (25:47):
Lemme shift this a little bit because we’re talking about sometimes when we’re trying to help people who this doesn’t come as naturally to, so we’re giving them process moves or thoughts, et cetera. But you know, almost have to manufacture those thoughts be before they become a little bit easier. I know that, for instance, when I work with some people who struggle with authenticity, I actually teach them to think more like an actor and get them into character and get them to a place where they were invincible and what that felt like and tasted like and smelled, but they’re actually not there. They’re there in their mind. So this is where that imposter syndrome to me kind of begins to creep in. There a battle when we get people out of their area of comfort to say, follow me, don’t think this way, follow this message. Have hope. Yeah. Is there a battle between that imposter syndrome of Okay, I will, but what if people find out I’m as fragile as they are?
Amy Wong (26:58):
Yeah, great question. Well, the way I’ll answer it is, imposter syndrome in and of itself is a big topic in my book because something I had been experiencing really across the board, it didn’t matter if you were just out of college, if you were just in, it didn’t matter where you were in the career chain or if you were a senior leader in executive, people were silently suffering, feeling like I’m the only one that struggles with these doubts or these fears or worried that I’m going to get found out. And so silently suffering. So it’s interesting, I wrote the book to help usher people out of that fear by understanding what was going on at the core. And so my fascination and passion or in youth was math. And so I studied math at uc, Berkeley, and it’s interesting because looking back, I didn’t understand why I wanted to study it so much and why I was so just so fascinated really was a search for truth.
(28:01)
And it’s a way of discerning the universe with a language that’s really objective. And what you do is you get really good at discerning data and sets of data, and you essentially are trying to find pattern and meaning, and you’re using incredible tools of mathematical tools in order to make sense of the world and then explain it in an irrefutable way. And so I didn’t realize this back then, but I chose math to get really good at logic and to get really good at taking really seemingly disparate data and make sense of it in a way that’s irrefutable. And so for me to say to people, Hey, come along with me, it’s so much better to feel this than what you’re doing over there. That doesn’t jive for me. Because I’m like, don’t take my word for it Sounds like LeVar Burton, right? Reading, don’t take my word.
(28:54)
You don’t have to take my word for it. Let me present you an argument that’s really going to, it’s allow you to make a case for yourself. And so this book really is written with the, I use a tremendous amount of logic and argument. It’s not written like a math book, but it’s really easy to read. But it’s a way in which I can help people make the argument for themselves to try it, to try it. And I’m very clear, hey look, is it a truth? No, it’s an option. Something called you to pick the book up. So clearly you’re interested if you try it, this my might be what you experience. And so it’s really more of an invitation. And I really, it’s very important to me that people arrive to that desire and that interest at least, very least interest on their own. And the only way I could really do that was with really soundproof argument.
Rob Jolles (29:52):
Right, right. Yeah. Okay. Well that makes sense. And it’s funny, you’re in an area, I know this area only a little bit, but I was, I’ve written books that are all very process-oriented, repeatable and predictable steps. If you follow those pattern, you’ll subscribe once you stylize it, but you get into areas like this and there isn’t necessary a clean cut, repeatable, predictable process. But I’ll tell you what, there is Amy, that I think there’s actually a series of very small things that they pull from a book like yours. Just these words, how we frame way, we think about this not to fear hope. So many different things that you’re touching on. And each one makes it smart, pushes us a little forward, pushes us a little forward. And all of a sudden you have a collection of thoughts and ideas and actions and you go, huh, now we are moving the needle. But it’s not necessarily when you get them with this page, we are good to go. It doesn’t work that way in this particular area. I could tell
Amy Wong (30:57):
No,
Rob Jolles (30:58):
That’s how I defend it because I, I’m for so many years when if it’s not a process, I have no interest. And I went, not everything’s a process, rob, but everything, if it contributes to success, then I’m interested, even if it’s a, I call ’em two or 3% moves. If you don’t want that 2% of effectiveness, mail it to me, I’ll take it. I, I’m collab, I love them because I don’t collect one. I collect 30. And now all of a sudden people go, boy, that Amy, she’s very lucky. Or that client that Amy’s working with really got lucky. Well, was it luck or was it a series of beliefs and moves and maneuvers that kind of teamed together and all of a sudden we see success?
Amy Wong (31:42):
Oh, that was so well said. And I couldn’t agree more that because the process of transformation is subjective and what works for one person, I mean, isn’t undoubtedly not going to cookie cutter work for another because it’s such an individual process. And we’re going to take these processes that we offer. You offer processes, I offer a ton of processes in my book and we have to take them and make ’em ours. And what’s so interesting about the work that we do here, it’s to, and maybe I might be speaking out of turn if this isn’t true for you, but what’s true for me is truly the measure of success isn’t so much, it’s not a number, it’s not, okay, you made that amount of money. Oh, but you got that title. Oh, you got pro. No. Okay, that’s interesting. But what’s most interesting to me, and what I care most about is that you get to the feeling state that you want because that’s why you want the the promotion. That’s why you want. And so for me, the measure of success is always that feeling state. Now is there an objective way to measure that for each person? No, but each person can say, ah, it’s doing it or I’m not, right, because I’m feeling better. I’m feeling more free. I’m feeling more purposeful. I’m feeling more fulfilled. I’m feeling more content. I’m feeling more present.
Rob Jolles (33:01):
Right. I’m feeling better. People have asked me for 20, 30 years how it doing, how you doing? How you doing, Amy, how you doing, Rob? And well, I, I’ve, for the last 20 or five years or so, I’ve always answered the same way. And it always catches people by surprise. But I always say, when they say, how you doing? I go, I’m happy. And first they, they’re going to be the guy at the gym. It doesn’t matter. But I do it for two reasons. One, I generally like to be, but two, just in case it reminds me, it forces that thought into my head as I say, because I’m not going to go, I’m unhappy in you. So as I go, I’m happy. I have to grapple with it a little bit and I want to grapple with it. I want to think about it. If I’m not there, I don’t want it to be an unconscious thought. It’s a whole lot easier to fix things when we’re consciously incompetent, when we know that what we don’t know. But it’s my way of just trying to stay with that thought. Cause it keeps moving. It doesn’t stay in one place.
Amy Wong (34:05):
Oh, that’s right. That is exactly right. And I love that because it’s really, it’s keeping you in the driver’s seat of you get to choose how you want to show up. And one thing I do want to mention, because it’s, I’m certain you’re optimistic. I’m optimistic. We both want to feel better than not. We both are going to tend towards doing things that make us feel better. We’re going to, yes, and we’re going to seek happiness. On the flip side, I want to it, I don’t demonize the negative feelings at all because in fact, I see that as information. And so for me, if I’m not feeling happy, I’ll ask myself, this is serving me in some way. Cool. Do I need to stay here for any reason maybe. And you know what? So the art for me is to just not push against that experience, recognizing that there’s a lot of information here for me to glean. And it’s in the practice of non-resistance to what’s true. That really helps me move more into that state of happiness or into that state of spaciousness. Because again, we’re in a plane of duality and we need both to inform so much about how we’re doing, what we’re doing, what we’re up to, and just to help us can keep on keeping on.
Rob Jolles (35:25):
Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. I feel like I’m hogging your tongue. I got one more question I got to get to. But I’ll tell you that the thing that always, and it’s the trainer in me. It’s the speaker in me. The thing that always concerns me is when people don’t know that they don’t know. And once we know that we don’t know, now we can make a choice of some sort. I’m going to go buy that book. I’m going to seek out that coach or I’m not, whatever. When we’re in that little area where we don’t know that, we don’t know all we that’s, but we’re walking around kicking the can on the street and moping and just whining, that’s the place that scares me a little bit because yeah, I’m not even aware that I’m there. And so anyway, that’s hopefully that’s why we build a unit around us. Your kids, you’re whatever we go, no, it’s wrong with you today. Anyway, but that’s the scary part. So I love little check-ins and little measurements. I find them alright. But I’m selfishly coming at you with one more question because I want to hear your take on this and then I’ll leave you alone.
Amy Wong (36:31):
No, no, I love it.
Rob Jolles (36:33):
But you write about being bold and fearless, what we all do. So for this last part of the walk that’s going on there, for somebody who’s listening right now, yeah, let’s get at that. I’d love to hear your views on how we can be more bold or fearless. Cause Yeah, I don’t know anybody who says, I choose not to be bold.
Amy Wong (36:57):
I choose not to be fearless,
Rob Jolles (36:59):
Right, right.
Amy Wong (37:01):
This is such a big beautiful conversation. And so I’m going to try to be succinct here because we could take this and I mean we could spend a whole afternoon on this.
(37:13)
In every moment in time, each and every one of us has a primary underlying objective. We’re usually not aware of it though. And it just has to do with the way our conscious minds are and focus. And so that primary underlying objective is going to dictate so much of our experience. So let me give you an example. Right now I’m in this lovely conversation with you, Rob. And so if I were not super aware and if I didn’t know what I know, I could ultimately be standing for impressing you and that could be my primary underlying objective. Or I could ultimately be standing for you liking me, or I could ultimately be standing for doing this, right? And getting business. So in every moment there is an underlying primary objective. I know if you didn’t know what you know could be ultimately just standing for getting this done, right, because you said you were, and that could be your primary ultimate underlying objective.
(38:18)
Now each of us has one and it’s that focus. We we’re choosing it, but we’re not really choosing it. It happens, but we do get to choose it. So I kind of think of this as a spotlight. Wherever the spotlight is, that’s absolutely going to dictate our reality. So if we are in a situation, let’s say, where do we find ourselves not bold and not fearless? Let’s say in the work environment, you’re in a really important meeting with a bunch of stakeholders that you don’t know but that are important and you’ve got an important point to make. And now you’re nervous and you’re like, oh my gosh, but, and you’re finding it really hard to take speak up. How many of us have been there? We’ve all been there. It’s that feeling of nervousness. Now, nervousness, that’s the opposite of bold and the opposite of fearless.
(38:59)
But that right there is simply a symptom of holding a primary underlying objective of holding a stance that’s not serving us in that moment. And in that moment, if we were really honest with ourselves, we would be standing for looking good, for protecting our image from avoiding judgment, for proving ourselves, we’re standing for us, we’re standing for ourselves. And that is never, ever a fruitful primary objective is to stand for self. It always has to be for something bigger. And that is exactly how we pull ourselves out of the habits that keep us small is the moment we shift the spotlight. No, what’s this is about collaboration. This is about an opportunity. This is about moving the needle. This is about mutual success. I don’t know there’s, there’s going to be a very noble objective to align to. But I’m going to guarantee if we are in a place that’s not fearless or bold, it’s because we are totally standing for ourselves.
(39:53)
We’re making it about us. The truth is not about us. It’s never about us. And a true life that’s meaningful and purposeful is when we get that it’s about others. It’s about service. It’s about something bigger than us. And so if we want to truly live a life with a baseline that isn’t of fear, that is bold, that is alive, it really requires owning that stance. So what will I stand for? I’m standing for opportunity, I’m standing for self, I’m standing for, I’m standing for invigoration, I’m standing for love, I’m standing for connection. I don’t know, there’s going to be an amazing stance to choose, but the moment you stand, you choose it. Now you got a new focal point. Now that focal point is going to completely, it’s going to take all that crazy bandwidth that was going, oh my God, what do you think?
(40:41)
I dunno, what am I being judged? And now it just channeled as it all into that one single focal point. This is of connection. This is for connection, this is for mutual success, whatever it might be. And that’s where impact comes from. That’s where influence, that’s where I mean, and that right there is the definition of being bold and fearless. And we can do this in every moment in our lives, in our parenting, in our relationships, when we want to try new things and be more adventurous and try stuff we haven’t tried. It’s it, it’s really truly in every moment of our lives, and it’s a practice of focus.
Rob Jolles (41:16):
Yeah. Beautifully said. And I know I put you under the gun there. I am telling you in my world, people, I could teach a three day sales class and they’ll go, now, give it to me in 30 seconds. <laugh> like, what? Well, okay, I have a 32nd version. Yeah,
Amy Wong (41:32):
Here we go.
Rob Jolles (41:33):
Yeah, it’ll be quick. I appreciate you really taking something folks that’s a little more complex and really kind of driving home a couple of very simple points there that, and that’s not easy to do. Well done you.
Amy Wong (41:50):
Well, thank you, Rob.
Rob Jolles (41:53):
The only, I’m going to change one word. Remember how we said the words, I’ll give you a little, Rob Jollesism. I, we extract the word from everyone I coach and work with of nervous and they know people. No, you can’t use that word around Rob. Okay. I tell ’em, you can use the word anxious but the nervous is chewing your nails. Ner Ner, I can’t do anything with nervous. Nervous is very bad connotation from me. So I tell ’em what you’re anxious and who wouldn’t be like a racehorse? A racehorse is anxious before it gets loaded in a stall to run. I don’t think it’s nervous, but it knows I got a race to run. I’ve got some things to do here, but it, we are anxious folks.
Amy Wong (42:34):
Oh, that’s interesting. And maybe you’ve heard this then I know Adam Grant, he spelled this out in his book, think Again. And I think he mentions it in originals too. If you’re, I’m sure you’re familiar with Adam Grant, and he offers that study on how they had a bunch of graduate students reframe and get rid of the word nervous and just say excited. Because the same physical sensations for excitement and nervousness or anxious anxiety are largely the same. And simply by saying, oh, no, no, no, I’m excited. I’m excited again, it’s shifting that focal point to be more constructive and to be more effective. And that right there is a great way to reframe nervousness too. Just I’m excited. I’m excited. Beautiful.
Rob Jolles (43:19):
Perfect. I love it. And I’m going to pay you a compliment right now. I’m going to tell you that people don’t know this, but publicists, et cetera, they always want to send me books. And I tell ’em, no, don’t send me a book. If I really like a book, I’m going to buy that book because I want to give a verified review on the book. And if you give it to me, that’s not going to help. I’m buying living on Purpose, <laugh> five deliberate choices to realize fulfillment and joy. And then I’m going to write a review on it. And so are the people who are listening right now, you are going to go get this book and you are going to write a review for two reasons. First, you’re going to love the book, and second, it’s one of the nicest things you can do to pay respect to an author. So I, I’ll lead the way. I’m going to get that book myself. I really l <laugh> Love this conversation. Where can people get ahold of you Amy?
Amy Wong (44:06):
Oh, thanks Rob. Yeah, they can. My website, which is always on purpose.com, so lots of information, resources, articles, the books available there too. And then I’m on LinkedIn, Amy Alisa Wong is my handle. You can look up Always on Purpose or Amy Wong, which just, you’ll find me there. And then again, the book, like you said, it’s Amazon, Barnes and Noble, target, all the places books are sold.
Rob Jolles (44:27):
Excellent. All right, so there’s no excuse folks. Let’s go out and get one. I am behold me to it. Amy, you’re going to, if you don’t see a review up there in two weeks, you can trash the name jealous, but it ain’t going to happen. So don’t get excited. I’ll come find you. That’s right. Wait, we’re, we’re on opposite coast, but I’ll still come find you <laugh>. See how important books are folks. <laugh>. All right. Listen, thank you so much for being a terrific guest. I really appreciate the time you spent with us, Amy. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. Good. Well, we’ll do it again as well as we can next time. Until then, everybody stay safe.
Outro (45:09):
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please rate and recommend it on iTunes, outcasts, wherever you get your podcast. You can also get more information on this show and rob@jolles.com.