Is giving a presentation really the number one fear that people have? Not everyone agrees with that old study, but what we can agree on is that speaking makes people anxious… sometimes, very anxious. Bestselling author and professional speaker Ian Altman sits down with Rob and provides a first-class education on speaking like a pro!
Originally Published: December 12, 2022
Episode Notes
In this Pocket Sized Pep Talk, you’ll learn:
- How you can cope with the pressure and anxiety that many have when speaking.
- Some powerful techniques to engage the audience.
- Adjustments that need to be made when speaking virtually.
- Two of the biggest mistakes amateurs make when making presentations.
- A couple of tricks of the trade picked up along the way.
- A couple of key mentors that influenced Ian’s career… and life.
Learn more about this guest at:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/IanAltman
Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/IanAltman/
Rob Jolles (00:01):
Is giving a presentation, really the number one fear that people have. Not everyone agrees with that old study, but what we can agree on is that speaking makes people anxious, sometimes very anxious. Let’s have ourselves a pocket size pep talk because I’ve got another professional speaker in the room. And you’re going to get a first grade education in the art of speaking
Intro (00:25):
A pocket size pep talk, the podcast that can help energize your business and your life with a quick inspiring message. Now, here’s your host, Rob Jolles.
Rob Jolles (00:39):
Today’s guest, Ian Altman, started, sold and grew his prior companies from zero to over a billion dollars in value. He’s the co-author of the best seller, same Side Selling and Hosts a popular podcast of the same name. He’s consistently recognized as one of the world’s top 30 experts on sales, and his same side selling academy is rated one of the top five sales development programs globally. Welcome to the show my friend Ian Altman.
Ian Altman (01:08):
Rob, it is a pleasure and honor a distinction, a coveted target of mine. I hope a dream realized. Thanks for having me, my friend. <laugh>
Rob Jolles (01:20):
I Bet. So you see where this podcast is going, folks with you and with you, and he’s already going there. I do. I want to talk about speaking, we’ll get I in on another time and I’ll mix it up on sales, but I wanted to bring you two professional speakers kind of carving into the world of speaking. So we’re not going to make you professional speakers today, but we’re going to demystify a lot of this nervousness and anxiousness. I’m not even crazy about the word nervous. I like anxious better, but why don’t we just start there. So give me some tips. As I said, people drag that study around that, that speaking is that number one fear, but it really isn’t coming in into two or three up there. How do we get people to feel less anxious when they speak?
Ian Altman (02:04):
Well, Rob, I think that part of it comes back to that Seinfeld joke that says people would rather be in the coffin than speaking next to it. And that notion, which I don’t think is true, but I have run into enough people who do get a little bit anxious to use your word when they speak. And I think that when you really unpack it, what it comes down to is they’re concerned about how people are perceiving them and they’re thinking, well, is my shirt okay? Where are my hands? Am I walking the right way? And things like that. And the easiest way I find to overcome that is if you instead think about what impact am I delivering for the audience? How am I changing their world, then you don’t worry about that stuff. I never think to myself, well, what are my hands doing unless I’ve got my hand in my pocket and I start scratching myself? Then it’s like, all right, bets are off. I might make the audience nervous. But outside of that, the idea is that you’re just having a conversation with people and I’m constantly thinking to myself, are they getting this? Am I moving the needle? Am I making a difference for them? And it makes it so you’re less worried about what they’re thinking about you, and now you’re thinking about them, which is really when we’re speaking the only people we should be worried about.
Rob Jolles (03:21):
And that’s a really good point. And that kind of transfers over to even how we sell. People get anxious doing a lot of things. Again, we take the focus off of us, we put it on that client, or we put it on that audience, and I’ll bat one back at you. I actually really believe that the audience wants me to do well, and it’s not that I’m a good nick or Mr. Half full. Think about it. They’ve got two choices. They can be walking into that room thinking, boy, I hope Ian and Rob lay an egg today and we just waste our time today. That’s not usually what’s on their mind. On their mind is, I hope it gets some value out of this. I hope this is worthwhile. So I channel that into, in a sense, they’re rooting for me and I got to take that with me up on that stage.
Ian Altman (04:07):
Absolutely, they’re rooting for us. And to put it in more crass terms, they’re just thinking before we start. They’re like, man, I hope this doesn’t suck. So the bar is actually set pretty low, and if you speak with integrity and you’re authentic in your message and they can tell that you’re actually genuinely interested in the impact that you’re delivering for them, they’re going to walk away and say, wow, this person actually was caring for me and delivering a message of value for me. If every time we got up, we told a story about, let me tell you how great I am, no one cares. And I think that’s the major difference of if people think about when they’ve sat in a session with a speaker that they really felt engaged and connected and one that didn’t guess when you were connected, it’s because it was relevant to you.
Rob Jolles (04:59):
You know, hit on something just now that’s smart. And that’s that introduction. There’s two ways we see that go down. We get introduced and with a person who’s introduced, and this always says, can I download your bio? Can I have their bi? And the bio looks good on the website, the bio looks good on paper, it never sounds good being read to an audience. So already as you just said, now we’re already coming off a little bit pompous, and that doesn’t mean everyone’s reading our bio. Sometimes we go, and let me tell you about me, if we get too far into the weeds on that, you’re going to lose that audience. So I’ve never really put those two together, but I really think yeah, I don’t want the first thought in that audience mind to be, well, I don’t know much, but he sure is pompous.
Ian Altman (05:48):
Yeah, well, you know what? And I think also it’s the notion of if I share a story, I can share a story about here’s something I struggle with. I got lucky figuring out how to overcome it, and now you can learn that too. Or I can say, this was easy for me, you’ll never figure it out. And guess what? The audience prefers the first story to the second story. So even if you use some editorial creativity and make it so that the audience can relate better, it works well. It’s also a matter of putting things in terminology and concepts that the audience can directly connect to. And I’ve spoken like you all around the world, and I find one of the most challenging audiences is actually in the UK because in our mind, well, it’s still English, but there’s different terminology that they use. So if you’re talking about a story of, oh, people got on the elevator.
(06:44)
Well, no, they got on a lift, they didn’t get on the elevator and they don’t get in on the first floor in the uk, they get in on the ground floor in the uk and it’s little things like that. So if every example we gave was an example in dollars and using American vernacular, then they’ve got to translate in their head as you’re speaking, they’re going to miss things. And so anytime I speak in the uk, I’m always very conscious about changing the language, changing the terminology, changing the numbers to pounds instead of dollars so that the audience member doesn’t have to do the work themselves.
Rob Jolles (07:17):
Yeah, no, he’s giving you some great tips here. It’s funny, I’ve got a whole bunch of questions I want to ask him. I don’t know if we’re going to get out of the first question because we just keep getting deeper, but I’ll tell you, and I like to make what you just said, simple, study your clients, study your audience there. There’s no reason why you can’t be online looking at that company’s website or looking at these people’s jobs. I’ll give you, it happened happened in England, but one of my funniest experiences, now, this was about 20 years ago, but I happened to have gone to do a presentation to it was total gas in England, and one of the first things I said was, it’s nice to be here on the 4th of July. And I made a comment about it the 4th of July, and the entire audience looked like they wanted to punch me in the nose because if I had studied that audience a little harder and my history books, there are different versions of the 4th of July, let’s just put it this way, and it’s a wonderful holiday in the us, but classic example, not studying my audience, not studying my client, and really pushing them away from me, putting them off, annoying them, and 20 seconds into my presentation.
(08:31)
And let me tell you, there are a lot of opinions that are getting cemented in that first minute or two. We’ve got to be really careful.
Ian Altman (08:40):
Oh yeah. And it’s having those logistical details in the first minute or two is when the audience is either on your side or thinking, is he done yet? And that’s a pivotal moment. You mentioned that story. Before I started any of my businesses, I worked for this technology company and we were out visiting we were out visiting Daimler Chrysler and one of the sales engineers kept saying, and our software is the Cadillac of the industry. And they kept saying, no, fifth Avenue. He is like, I don’t know what that is. And then he would just a minute later it’d say, and it’s the Cadillac. And we’re like, you’re a Daimler Chrysler <laugh>. Like, like this is their opponent. This is their nemesis. You’re not helping this. And it was just, but it’s funny, as you give that story, it’s, it’s one of those things where sometimes we don’t think about the ramifications and then when it happens, we’re like, Ugh. And that’s part of the learning experience as well. And sometimes if you own that, it’s okay if you said, I’m great, it’s great to be here on July 4th, and I realize how awkward that could be, then the audience would be like, okay, that’s all right. And now you’re on their side again.
Rob Jolles (09:51):
Right? And again, that’s the key. We can survive it, but we’re not going to talk away out of it. There’s a lot of humility that’s involved and a smile. And I’ve got 30 other stories on that one, but we’ll leave that because I want to get to a few others, but other questions, but I, I’d like to leave it at this. In real estate they say location, location, location. You want to feel less anxious about giving a presentation and sometimes as much as you can, we’re a little bit restricted by preparation, preparation, preparation, prepare, prepare that beginning, think out those first minute or two and think out how you’re coming off that apparatus, how you’re going to stick that landing. And I’m not telling you, I’m not worry about the middle, but a lot can be forgiven in the middle. We come out strong, we get the audience we finish strong. That’s what they remember. But let’s, you and me, let’s, let’s talk about how we hold that audience. So we survived our opening. We got our trimm down, nice and small. We’ve showed some humility. They’re with us, but now we got to engage this audience. We got to keep them engaged. Give me a couple tips, Ian.
Ian Altman (11:05):
Well, so there are a couple things that I like to focus on. First comes back to this idea of the audience, making sure that every example is for them. If I’m speaking to people who are entrepreneurs and they’re in the B2B space, and I start giving examples of Apple and Tesla, they’re like, well, what does that have to do with us? They don’t care. So we want to make sure our examples are examples that hit home with them where they say, oh, you know what? Yeah, I can relate to that. I often bring people on stage and we do role plays and we’ll role play. And I said, okay, give me your scenario. And usually at the end, the person takes a microphone and goes, and we didn’t prepare this at all. That was great. And part of it is that people feel like, wow, this is a high risk situation and it’s our scenario that we’re seeing live.
(11:52)
One of the traps that I see is when people ask the audience questions, they don’t tell them how to respond. So they’ll say, well, what percentage do you agree with this? And the audience is like, well, am I supposed to shout out a number <laugh>? Like what am I supposed to do? Instead of you can simply say things like, by show of hands, how many of you feel this way? And it’s also best if you’re trying to get a certain answer, then you can ask the question in the extreme. So instead of asking a question like, well, how many of you like this? Say? How many for of you is the thing you look forward to more than anything in the world? Yeah. And no one’s hands go up and you go, ah, okay. So you know how many of you want to feel like you’re being sold to? And that’s the thing that would just make your day and your life would be complete. No one’s going to raise their hand to that. So it’s thinking about how you phrase the question and making sure the audience knows how to answer it. That becomes the major difference.
Rob Jolles (12:52):
And you know what I like that you’re doing? A lot of times I, I’m trying to get an audience to crawl before they walk, to walk before they run. So rather than ask them, what’s the capital of Kansas? A fact-based question that could embarrass somebody by getting it wrong, sometimes those first questions are kind of rhetorical. They’re just out there. How many of you have felt that way before? Yeah. Or how many of you have seen that? And you’ll just hear kind of a, and that’s the crawl. And then we we’re going to walk and then we’re going to run. So you can warm that audience up, but you’ve got to keep those, A lot of opinion-based questions I like to use early, which means no matter what your opinion is, it’s called an opinion. Okay. You have an opinion.
Ian Altman (13:33):
Exactly. And when I’ve been in the audience, when you’ve spoken, you’re the master of this. I mean, you do this so well, it’s like it’s a pleasure to watch. And I think that notion of, a lot of times I’ll share an example of something and I say, so here’s what it sometimes sounds like when somebody is calling to follow up with a client, and it sounds like, Hey, just call to check in. Want to see if you made a decision yet. So show of hands, how many of you have heard somebody in your office make that phone call? And almost everyone raise their hand, all right, here’s a real moment of truth. How many of you have actually made that phone call? And I put my hand up first and everyone’s like, oh, it’s okay to own up to that. All right, cool. And now there’s almost like a bond that we have. Oh, we’ve all done stupid things like that. Great. Instead of, you did what an idiot. We don’t want to make it. So the person goes, well, I’m not answering any more questions because the guy made me feel badly for asking the first one.
Rob Jolles (14:24):
Yeah, that’s great. I did a senior scams presentation some years ago and intentionally, and I had about 300 people in the audience. And intentionally early on, I asked how many of ’em have been scammed. And if the 300 people, maybe five hands went up and it’s called a callback. But what I did at the end was go back to that question, but first tell a story about somebody that I knew, and I’d already taught them, if it’s too good to be true, it isn’t true. You can’t send money with Western Union can you can’t send it out of the country. I said, this person broke every single rule. They did this, they did this, they did this. And that person was me. Now, how many of you have been scammed and 300 hands went up in the air? And exactly. I had to make that point because one of the fucking jump into that presentation, one of the issues with particularly seniors that’s get scammed is they’re embarrassed. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t tell the family, they don’t tell anybody, and that’s dangerous as well. But it’s a great point in terms of getting near, throwing some humility in there while you’re at it. But make your point, because when you ask people about something they don’t feel so good about, that’s running to me, they’re not going to give you that one the first two minutes in there, particularly when you’re kind of the big speaker. When we come down to their level, they’ll talk.
Ian Altman (15:41):
Sure. And if we ask ’em questions that are going to improve the experience for them, they’ll answer. So I’ll often say, what’s the most frustrating thing that you are into that your clients or prospects do that just makes you scratch your head and think, Ugh, how do I make this stop? And then people will say, well, it’s when they do this. And usually I’ll give them examples and I’ll say, look. So a lot of times what I hear is people who say, look, I got clients who no matter how differentiated we are, they always just focus on price instead of the value or results. How many of you can relate to that show of hands? And now it’s like, okay, the way you answered a couple questions, now it’s like, so what else should be on the list? Right? Oh, this should be on the list. And now they feel like they’ve built the agenda. Now you and I have done this enough. I’ve never been surprised by the agenda. It’s not like I asked people for ideas. I’m like, wow, I’ve never heard of that one. Because if you’ve done this a thousand times, you got a pretty good idea what the topics are going to be. But they might phrase it in a little bit different way. And then I use that phrasing the entire rest of the time.
Rob Jolles (16:40):
Yeah, yeah. Well, you’re listening to a pro folks because he’s absolutely right. It’s kind of like heckling a comedian or honestly, you can give it a shot, but they’ve heard it before. Remember this, they’re very comfortable up there. We’re comfortable where we are. And when we’re on our game it’s not that we, you’re heckling us, but when you zig, when we think you’re going to zag, trust me, we’ve seen that zig and zag plenty of times. We’re ready. We’re okay. I’m going to pay you a compliment in. And that is the very first time I ever met you. I was giving a presentation and I was doing an exercise where I brought people up and Ian came up and participated in an exercise. And the reason why I’m complimenting, I’m complimenting you for a bunch of the things, but I remembered that because one of the things, and you know what?
(17:29)
I’m going take you behind the curtain of a professional speaker. When you are working in that room as an audience, you don’t need to be the smartest person in the room. Just go where we’re going. So you would think that Ian, or if Ian brought Rob Joice up, oh, he’s going to really make this about him. Believe me, we don’t want to make it about us just as happy. So I really, all I knew about Ian was a very quiet guy until I met him off stage and I realized, oh my goodness, he was holding back. But you were just the perfect participant, which was, wherever Rob wants to push me, I’ll go. And that’s what I remember of bringing you up on stage. And that’s how I met you.
Ian Altman (18:09):
What I remember that exercise,
Rob Jolles (18:14):
And I’ve been scarred ever since cause of it.
Ian Altman (18:14):
<laugh>, it’s funny you mentioned the idea of people zigging when you think they’re going to zag. I was speaking at a financial services conference and the night before we’re there and I meet somebody and I said, well, so what are the things that frustrate you? And the person says, oh, I’ve got this one client right now. It’s this exact situation. She describes in pain seeking detail what’s going on. This has been on my mind every day for the last month and I don’t know how to deal with it. And I said, okay, I don’t want you to get into more detail. Would you be comfortable if I brought you on stage? And we talked about that tomorrow. She says, absolutely. So I bring her on stage and I said, so Sue, we talked last night about this scenario, this and that. Give us a sense of what the situation is.
(18:58)
And she described in great detail a completely different situation, <laugh>, that wasn’t all that interesting. I said, well, that’s fantastic. We went through it and we role played her scenario and everything. And then after the session, she comes back to me and says, I realized that actually last night we talked about something di different we, and I said, did we? Because I don’t want her to feel badly. It’s tough enough for her to be on stage in front of thousands of her peers. Look, whichever way it went, that was the way it was supposed to be,
Rob Jolles (19:28):
Right? You know what you’ll find a and as a speaker and from the professionals is what we’re really looking for are those moments of improv. Are those moments when we can demonstrate to an audience that, no, I don’t say this every time. No, it doesn’t always come out this way. And that’s when an audience really begin to cement that audience. I’m bringing that up because when you speak ladies and gentlemen who are listening, Ian, and I’ve got this down when you speak, look for opportunities. It won’t have to be by luck. Build it into your presentation where you can engage with the audience with some questions or as Ian does, bring them on upfront with you, the subject matter expert. You’ll be fine. Now, don’t do it in the first five minutes. Get your legs under and you’ll be fine. But if you do that, you’ll not only deliver a great presentation with great content, but it’s a g really good way of proving to the audience that you’re the real deal. Because anybody can read behind a lectern and now we’re engaging. Now what you heard Ian doing is just working with what’s there handling that we will take care of the other person in the chair, but work in that improv. And to me, that’s when I lean back in my chair and go, oh, that guy’s good.
Ian Altman (20:48):
Yeah. Well, and you know what? Even if people who are listening are thinking, well, what if they ask a question? I don’t know the exact answer, guess what? You got a room full of people. You can say, you know what? I’ve got an idea on this. I want to hear a quick ten second answer from two other people and how you might approach that. And that gives you time to think up your answer. And more importantly, you get to build on other people and you get to say, you know what? I love what Sue said up at this. I love what Jim said about this. Let me give you even a third way to approach it, and I encourage you to try these out and see which one works best for you. And that way it’s like you’ve now helped build the solution out of the room and everyone in the room feels like they’re part of the session. They’re not just a tacit participant.
Rob Jolles (21:35):
What you just described in my book is called a relay. And that can come in that one-on-one conversation up front. But I’ll tell you that relay works real well. When you get a question from the audience and you say, boy, that’s a great question. How have some of you been able to work on that so far? The key to a relay, and Ian just said it, I just want to slow ’em down, is you can’t relay something out and go, oh, that’s interesting. Okay, so anyway, you have to finish the question off. You have to go great input. The answer is seven. Or you’ve got to put your 2 cents in there. If you do that, you don’t have to worry about people thinking, huh? Did he know the answer to the question? Oh, he knew the answer to the question, but he took that question, got four more people involved in it and really brought that audience in. Just don’t forget to cap it. That’s what I call, put a cap on it and let them hear your opinion on this. Now you’re good to go. You move on to relay.
Ian Altman (22:35):
Yep. Rob, One thing in that relay that I want to make sure that people caught is notice it didn’t say, well, and give me how else you’ve solved it. Give me a quick ten second description of how you’ve solved this. Because what I’m basically conveying to the audience is this is not time for you to go into a diatribe that’s four minutes long about when you were in band camp and now you learn this and that and here’s the way you’re going to apply it. But it’s more, I’m giving him guidance that says, I want you to give me a concise answer to this because I don’t want to get derailed from the entire session. Because sometimes you can encourage participation and regret what you got.
Rob Jolles (23:13):
Well, that’s funny you say, cause I’m smiling right now, not much makes me anxious on stage, but actually that does. And if anybody’s hearing this and goes, boy, I can’t wait to get to a jealous audience cause I’m going to watch him squirm. But really it’s the question that won’t end or the response that won’t end. We actually sometimes call those people heroes. And what we try and do, if that happens, what we try and do is move off that stage, move to ’em a little bit. If that doesn’t work, look to clip ’em. In other words, you’re just going to have to jump in and go. And so that sounds like and pull it back. But yeah, that’s one of the few things that will make me a little anxious because a lot of times when you give a presentation, you’ve been told 30 minutes, you’ve been told an hour, whatever it is, you are responsible to bring this ship in 60 minutes if that’s what they said, not 70 and not 40. So you’ve got to watch your time. And you’re right that relay, if we don’t put a little condition on there, as you suggested, we might be vulnerable to the response that will not end.
Ian Altman (24:22):
And it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t encourage participation, it’s just put some guardrails up. And what I’ve done in the past is, okay, give me a ten second answer to this. And then someone starts going, and then I’ll say, lemme just interrupt for one second. Has it been 10 seconds on your side? And then everyone will laugh and they’ll laugh. And I go, okay, so what I heard you say, let me just try and distill it down to this. Is that right? Yes. Great. Okay. Who else has got one? And now the second person, there’s no way they’re going over 10 seconds. Right?
Rob Jolles (24:48):
Well done. Well done. Okay let me shift gears. Let’s talk about virtual just for a second. Okay. And I’m curious about your thoughts on this, even though we seem to be thawing out a little bit. I know Ian’s been back on the road some, I’ve been back on the road getting back out there, but virtual’s never going to go away at this point. It’s too, it’s, it’s got a really valuable spot. So we got to get ourselves together and give great virtual presentations to give me one or two tips. If you can only pick two of the best things that you’ve learned about your virtual deliveries you could pass on.
Ian Altman (25:29):
So the first one is that unlike on a big stage now, the medium is more like television. So facial expressions in virtual are way more impactful than they are to a room of 150 people. Now if the room is 1500 people, you’ve got image magnification and now you’re back to being on TV even though you’re in front of a live audience. And it’s different. But the idea is that you can relate to people more one-to-one. And if you think about delivering to each individual instead of to the zoom room, then people will better connect with you. The other thing is that I often encourage people because as a speaker sometimes it’s kind of disheartening when you don’t get any audience feedback. And if you’re someone who likes to engage the audience and the audience, believe me, wants to be engaged even when they’re on Zoom, then we got to figure out how to engage them.
(26:26)
And I will tell people, look, please, as long as you’re fully clothed, please turn your camera on right? And if you’ve got a dog barking in the background, you want to mute it, that’s fine. If you don’t have a headphone and you want to mute it, that’s fine. But otherwise, if you have questions, feel free to interrupt. But I will periodically during our session, I will ask questions and I will say, Hey, by show of hands, and I’ve got this gallery view of 60 different people up on this big screen in front of me, and I want to know if it’s three of you or if it’s 58 of you. So the idea is I’m setting a tone that says, look, I expect you to be there and I’m actually paying attention to what you’re doing, which makes it so that, I mean, it’s still occasionally you get somebody who’s like lying on their sofa and they got their camera camera on and it’s like, I don’t think your boss is going to be thrilled to see you sitting on your lying on your sofa, petting your cat during the session. But if that’s your level of engagement will take it.
Rob Jolles (27:22):
That’s great. I will tell you that I tried. Don’t try this at home even I failed at this, but I sure gave it the college try while you were talking. I was looking for it. I actually put a bow speaker on the other side of my microphone, wired up to a button that I had with a laugh track basically because I said, the thing I miss is because I got to mute a hundred people on this call got to mute you up. But funny things happen. Sometimes people find us funny. So when something funny happens, you’ll hear this sound. And it was great, except I could never part of humorous timing. And you, Ian and I don’t really tell jokes. We react to things and then it becomes funny. We hope. So I was always late on the button. Sometimes I missed the button sometimes as I hit the button too long.
(28:13)
And if this little laugh track either went three seconds or 20 seconds depended if I double hit it, which meant I couldn’t shut it up. So consequently I had to put the laugh track away. But other than that, I’m with you. I really try and simulate if you stand, if you have drink, if you have a cup of coffee when you speak, grab a cup of coffee. What I love about it is, and we’re going half full on this, I love the introverts have found a way of better participating. Cause a hundred people, there aren’t a whole lot of introverts that will raise their hand and ask a question that’s just a little too anxious for them. Some will, but I’m just saying as a whole, but boy, you look at that chat area and they’ll light it up. Sure. They’re just fine asking that question there. So we have actually brought in a part of the audience that I wasn’t accustomed to hearing from, and it’s nice to hear from ’em because they’ve got great questions. They’ve been sitting on ’em for a while, they should be good questions. So it’s a matter of, I don’t beat up a virtual presentation. I think we give up a little bit, but we gain a little bit and that’s the way I’d like to live it.
Ian Altman (29:18):
And in some cases it makes it so people could attend it, couldn’t attend otherwise. So yeah, you got to look at the pros and cons of it. There are certain events where I’ll say to people, look, your audience is going to get a lot more out of this in person than they will virtually. And I’ve got a whole digital platform, so there’s a lot that I do virtually and digitally. But fundamentally, there’s certain things where it’s just going to play better in person. And in fact, oftentimes if I’m doing what amounts to a full day program for a company, I’ll say to them, look, let’s do an afternoon one day, then do an informal gathering that evening, then a half day the next morning, they say, why? So, because the people who won’t ask the question in the session will ask me during dinner. It’s like, and I know that happens, and it’s going to be some of the most impactful stuff you get is during the time. That’s not programmed. But instead it is just the stuff that will be valuable. And sure enough, every single time somebody at dinner who 20 minutes before the dinner’s over goes, so I got a question. Do you mind if I ask it? And it’s like, and invariably, whoever the ceo, the C, whoever it is, gives like a nod. You’re right here it comes. Like this is the guy I wanted to ask the question. Who wouldn’t ask earlier?
Rob Jolles (30:34):
It’s a great point. And we’re talking to all levels of speakers who are listening here. So if you’re a manager in, you’re speaking in your conference room great, we’ll giving you some tips. But what Ian just gave you, if you are actually a person who is presenting if you can get to dinner with those folks, this is a business and you will connect at a completely different level. So believe me, when Ian and I have spoken for eight hours and we’ve got 70, 80 emails backing up, and that’s just the emails we’ve got other work to do. Having dinner with the group is not necessarily first on my list, but it must be first on my list because that is part of the speaking profession. And you have to connect, and as Ian just said, you’ll flush out a question, things that, but you’re also connecting from a business standpoint. And again, if you’re in the business of speaking, this is part of the business of speaking, having dinner before that presentation or midway through that presentation, I don’t discount that at all.
Ian Altman (31:44):
And chewing your food is just throw that out, watch what you eat.
Rob Jolles (31:48):
Actually, when I <laugh> 20 years ago, I was like, oh, I’ll have the whatever. I’ll have the lobster. Yeah, okay, now I’m wearing a lobster. Yeah, you have to be careful what, yet, I think people have probably already learned this, but there’s certain sandwiches and foods you don’t want to get when you’re with a client, you’re wearing your food. So yeah, that’s a whole nother nother podcast on, oh, I’m eating an etiquette with clients.
Ian Altman (32:16):
Shit, I’m not with my client. I’m going to have the chili dog or the wings.
Rob Jolles (32:20):
Yeah, that’s right. Alright, I’m going to pen you in again. Tell me, and I’ll give you one back. Tell me what you think would be if you’re, and you only get one this time, the biggest mistake an amateur presenter will make, and this can be either in the creation or the delivery of a presentation
Ian Altman (32:43):
Go the single biggest mistake is trying to put too much information into a presentation or into an individual slide.
Rob Jolles (32:53):
Yeah. Well, he nailed it. I mean, I could come up with 18 I together. They wouldn’t equal number one. We always, the mirror doesn’t talk back. It looks good on paper, but you want that audience responding to you. Ian keeps describing things he’s doing with the audience. How do you pull that off if you packed everything but the kitchen sink into the presentation? So now I got to come up with one, and I didn’t think you’d steal the best one. I thought you’d be nicer than that. All right, I’ll throw one back at you. Biggest mistake an amateur would make. Boy okay, how about fallen in love with that PowerPoint or that keynote a little bit too much? And again, I, this is not one B, this is a legitimate number two or three, but I do think vary your techniques. So there is some lecture, but there’s some facilitation, there is some PowerPoint, but there might be walking over to that flip chart for a minute or two there, or passing an object or using your mobility. There’s so many ways to sustain interest. And by the way, humor comes very easy to Ian. Some say it comes easy to me as well, but I can give you 39 other ways to be very interesting. Audiences don’t necessarily want you to be funny. They want you to be interesting. So don’t fall in love with that. I combined a few together, they still don’t equal Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hog. But yeah, I would just vary what you’re doing. Don’t fall in love with anything. Mix it up a little bit and make sure that
Ian Altman (34:32):
the question I often ask people, if someone who is newer to speaking or they’re speaking to their internal team and they send me, here’s my presentation. Oftentimes I’ll look at a slide and I’ll say, so what are you planning to say that’s not on the slide? And they’ll say, well, I was just going to cover what’s on the slide then You don’t really need the slide. These are things that you want to cover. And so as you’re thinking of it, you typed it onto the slide, but really you’re better off with a picture that conveys this idea and then you share those facts. And so that’s a challenge. There’s a technology that I picked up a couple years ago called beautiful ai, which is this tool for creating slides. And it basically prevents you from overs, stuffing the slide. And people say, well, I don’t like it because it doesn’t let me put enough stuff on the slide. I’m like, no, no. That’s the point of it is
Rob Jolles (35:29):
That that’s why it’s called beautiful.
Ian Altman (35:30):
Yeah, exactly. It doesn’t let you put whole bunch of garbage on one slide in four point type. And here’s a pro tip. If you ask the audience can you guys read this in the back? The answer is no, they can’t. So there’s too much on the slide. And it’s just too often we feel like we got to put everything out there and less is more
Rob Jolles (35:53):
Good. All right, we’re going to do it one more time and we’re coming down the home stretch. I could keep you on for a long time, but how about, because you just hit it, sort of a trick of the trade. Let’s swap tricks of the trade. And you can’t tell me, don’t put too much into a presentation. You already stole a good one. Okay, but give me a trick of the trade, just something kind of that you like to do that most speakers don’t do, but it’s a smart move.
Ian Altman (36:19):
So every single time I give a talk before the talk, I ask the organizers, what are we going to measure six months down the road to know that this was worthwhile? And so that way I know that they and I have a shared goal or vision of what we’re going to change. And it means that I can focus my efforts on achieving that result makes it much easier when I’m focused on what it is we’re trying to achieve rather than what it is I’m trying to present.
Rob Jolles (36:46):
Excellent. Your turn. Alright, I’ll swap. I’ll swat one back at you. I like, particularly when there’s an ask, so I’m going to move more to a sales presentation where you’ve you’ve been working with a client and now you get to talk to this team and you’re coming down the home stretch, you’re really showing product. You got the group together, but you’re given this presentation. Well, we all know the elephant in the room and it doesn’t have to be a sales presentation. A lot of time a presentation is asking the audience to do something, to commit to something. There is an ask at the end. I think one of the smartest moves you can make is actually right in the first two minutes or so while you’re telling them what’s in it for them to learn this and how it’s going to help. And here’s the big picture I love to work in.
(37:32)
And at the end of the presentation I’m going to ask each and every one of you. In other words, I’m going to tell ’em what the ask is. They sort of know in there. I mean, they didn’t know why they’re in there, but speakers tend to stumble when it’s time to say, so maybe we’re in a bank and the bank is showing out 401ks, but we really want you to be a part of this bank. So I would love for every, I don’t want a double clutch at the end end. I hope each and every one of you will think this might just be the bank for me and we’ll see how well I did. And that way 20 minutes from now they’ve been thinking about it. We planted the seed. So now I can come back that callback again and say, you know what? The beginning, so here’s my question, and now no one’s not as uncomfortable for you or the audience. So yeah, it’s setting the objective early and then go check that objective out.
Ian Altman (38:24):
I love that, Rob. And guess what, it calls back to what you said earlier, which is if you built rapport with them, if you connected with things that are relevant for them, if they’re engaged, they’re rooting for, so they’re inclined to agree with your question because you’ve already laid it out there.
Rob Jolles (38:41):
Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. That’s a question I typically ask everyone near the end. So how about mentors? And I don’t count. Okay, so give me a mentor or two that really is been important to this journey of yours.
Ian Altman (38:58):
I don’t know if mentor’s a right term, but my friend Phil Jones wrote a book called Exactly What to Say, and Phil and I met, he, he’s based in the uk, he’s probably 10 or 15 years younger than me. And he said, oh, I’m moving to the states. I’d love to connect with other people to speak about sales. And I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. Okay. It’s nice. And he just did a couple things that really stood out for me and I’ve gotten to know him and he is just absolutely brilliant. And he is somebody who, he just, the way he crafts things, the way he presents things, it’s just so crisp that he’s a guy who’s made a big impression. The other one who made a big impression on me is a guy I met probably in the last 10 years, Jim Cathcart. Oh yeah. And the biggest thing that Jim Cathcart said is he said, the term closing is a bad term because we’re not closing anything, we’re opening a relationship. So the industry needs to stop using the term, closing the sale because you’re not really closing anything. And that has stuck with me, and it’s been definitely, definitely has made an impression.
Rob Jolles (40:05):
I think I’d probably grab Brian Tracy who’s just been very generous with his time and his wisdom that he’s shared with me. And then I’m going to throw in my dad. My dad was a salesman and two of my books are dedicated to him, which I think really bothers my mom. But <laugh> the way he was a salesman and he taught me a lot particularly to appreciate the profession and respect the profession. He wasn’t as tactical. Xerox was my mentor there, I suppose. Sure. But he got me to love selling and appreciate it, and I’ll always be grateful. All right. Where do people get ahold of you? Ian?
Ian Altman (40:49):
At ianaltman.com or same side selling.com. And of course if you reach out on LinkedIn, I’m happy to connect with you. Just mention the brilliant, the talented Rob Jolles, so I know where it came from. And it could be one of these pocket sized, is it a pack? Is that what it is?
Rob Jolles (41:10):
Pocket sized pep talk
Ian Altman (41:13):
Okay. Just making sure. So just mention it. And I just want to make sure that this way, I know where you came from. There’s some times where as soon as I click accept, the person is trying to sell me something. And surprisingly, I don’t need any more investments out of Ethiopia, so I’m pretty much good there. The royal family. I’ve taken all the distribution of funds I can from there. There you go.
Rob Jolles (41:39):
You only fell for it three times. Good for you. Good. See, you can learn. Well, look his book is terrific. You can get that on Amazon, Ian Altman, that’s I A n A L t m A n.com. And so easy to find mean. If you listen to my podcast, I don’t always end this way, but Ian is a good guy, good friend of mine. I’ve learned stuff from Ian. He’s learned a few things from me, but he’s the real deal folks, and we were lucky to have him on the show, and I’m grateful to have had this conversation. Thank you,
Ian Altman (42:13):
Rob. You’re Rob. You’re too kind. Thank you so much.
Rob Jolles (42:15):
You bet. All right, well, we’ll do it again as well as we can next time. Everyone. Until then, stay safe.
Outro (42:24):
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy today’s show, please rate and recommend it on iTunes, outcasts, wherever you get your podcast. You can also get more information on this show and rob@jolles.com.