We all have ideas, some of them great, and some of them have the potential to change the world. But how committed are you to fighting for those ideas? Author and former programing chief Larry Rifkin sits down with Rob and talks about his new book, “No Dead Air: Career Reflections From the TV Executive Who Saved Barney the Dinosaur From Extinction,” an upcoming documentary on Barney The Dinosaur, and the lessons he learned fighting for his ideas.
Originally Published: November 28, 2023
Episode Notes
In this Pocket Sized Pep Talk, you’ll learn:
“A Book Finds You” because my listeners have heard this a few times. How did this book find you?
- How this book found him. Spoiler Alert: His four year old daughter had a hand in this!
- It doesn’t take a genius to get a hint of what that documentary is about. (I love you, you hate me.) is that why they solicit donors? Letters
- Tips Larry provides to fight for your ideas.
- What led him to broadcasting.
- Advice for people pursuing a career in broadcasting or communications today.
- Key mentors from Larry’s past.
Learn more about this guest at: larryrifkin.net
Rob Jolles (00:00):
We all have ideas. Some of them are great and some of them have the potential to change the world, but how committed are you to fighting for those ideas? Let’s have ourselves a pocket-sized pep talk because I’m going to be talking to a man who did just that. And his story along with the lessons that he learned may inspire you to fight for your ideas too.
Intro (00:22):
A pocket size pep talk, the podcast that can help energize your business and your life with a quick inspiring message. Now, here’s your host, Rob Jolles.
Rob Jolles (00:35):
Larry Rifkin’s, best known for his nearly 30 years as programming chief for Connecticut Public Television. Under his leadership, he amassed over 50 Emmy awards in the Boston New England competition. He’s currently the host of America Trends podcast and appears in the Barney documentary. I love you, you Hate me on Peacock tv. His new book is No Dead Air Career Reflections from the TV Executive Who Saved Barney, the Dinosaur from Extinction. How’s that for a book title? Glad to have you with us. Welcome to the show, Larry.
Larry Rifkin (01:09):
Thank you very much, Rob. A pleasure.
Rob Jolles (01:11):
It’s a pleasure to have you as well. So let’s dive in and let’s just start with a book. Someday I’m going to start a podcast called A book Finds You <laugh>, because I use that phrase all the time, but it’s just rare that I bump into somebody and go, well, I don’t know. I just wanted to, it usually finds us. I don’t think we’re going to have to look hard here, but how did this book find you?
Larry Rifkin (01:32):
Well, I started it when I left radio. I went back into radio after I left television because radio, if you really scratch an old guy like me you’ll find that even if you were in television, you started in radio. And I was a radio brat, which I bring up very early in the book. My father was a radio station manager, so I was somebody who was always listening and critiquing and such. And when I left radio in 2017, guess why I left in 2017. Well, the political wins had changed, and I really didn’t want to be blown away with them. So in doing so, I decided that I had to do some things that related to my career because I wasn’t done yet, and I call it today, casual employment. My wife and I both cannot give up the fact that we still want to do the things we’ve always loved.
(02:27)
She’s a physical therapist and I’m still a broadcaster, so I do Chris Radio, a reading service for the Blind. I do the podcast. I occasionally go back on radio and do remote, so on and so forth. But with all that said, I just felt that I really had an interesting story to the extent that it went well beyond the state of Connecticut and the impact of Barney alone, but also Yukon Women’s basketball because if you’ll allow me as we discuss this to talk about Yukon women’s basketball, that led to a national revolution in women’s sports on television. And because of that, I said, I tell some pretty good stories and I still have a little bit of brain matter left, and before I forget all these great stories about people I dealt with Ringo Star or Charlton Heston or Carol King, I better get this stuff down. So I wrote four chapters, Rob in 2017, and then I put it aside and I had other things going, and then I picked it up during the pandemic. And really the pandemic was a great lubricant to wanting a to go back, not be where you were at that moment, and B, to getting some things done.
Rob Jolles (03:45):
Yeah, that makes sense. I wrote a piece, Larry called It’s Shelf Building Time, and it was right during the early stages of the pandemic when we really didn’t know how to spell pandemic, let alone what is it going to last three weeks, maybe a month. But I remember my dad used to come home he was a salesman, and every now and then he’d just be into building shelves and garage over here, over there, the neighbors, you name it, shelf building time. And one when one time I was asking me, he said, when business stops, when things aren’t going as well, I like to build shelves. It gets me out of there. It allows me to contribute. I know eventually I’ll be back, but I can accomplish something during that period of time. And so I think that in a sense, we all did a little bit of shelf building during this pandemic. And now as I don’t want to jinx us, but as we kind of crawl along back out now, I too am proud of a few things that I did my version of shelf building, but I applaud the fact that you got that manuscript over the finish line. I certainly know what that’s like and good for you. Good shelf building for you, sir.
Larry Rifkin (04:58):
Well, thank you. Well, the other thing that I’ve been doing is writing a lot of music. Oh, I’m a drummer and a drummer my whole life still in a rock and roll band with old guys like me. It’s called Boom Band of Old Men. We’re playing out even next week, so it’s wonderful. But then I wanted to teach myself one of the melodic instruments because in my band we’ll be talking about things that I didn’t even understand. I understood the rhythm and such, but I didn’t understand what they were talking about. So I taught myself keyboard by using this great program online, piano genius.com. And I’ve written now about 60 songs, and I’ve recorded a lot of them or a number of them on if anybody wants to listen into these demos. And now I’m working with a guy out of Boston who Rob is doing an incredible job of instrumentalizing arranging and really bringing my songs to life. So that’s my new goal, to sell one or two.
Rob Jolles (05:58):
Excellent. That’s a worthy goal. I had a guy on the show who called himself the king of the side hustle, and this was about a year and a half ago. I had to look up what exactly is the side hustle. And then I realized, oh, about four of the things you’re doing, Rob. But I really kind of got in touch with that. And it sounds to me like you’ve kind of got these little side hustles coming along here for you.
Larry Rifkin (06:21):
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Well, it’s interesting. I was talking to someone yesterday, a dear friend of mine at a memorial for a friend of ours. As we get on in age, I just turned 70. I just lost a dear friend, and there was a tribute to him because he helped rebuild my alma mater, the University of Connecticut by his work as government relations head there. And ironically, he was getting this big award, the highest award the university gives, and he knew about it a year ago. And then he passed about four weeks before the award was going to be given, but they turned it into a memorial service. And I talked to my friend who moved to Mount Desert is in Maine Bar Harbor. It’s so gorgeous up there. It really is. But she said her goal in retirement was to do nothing, and she was the most active, aggressive, forward looking person, but now she is really off the grid, if you will, and I just couldn’t do that. I still have some things that I want to do. Maybe it’s just ego. I don’t know.
Rob Jolles (07:26):
Yeah, no. And I’m going to take the over under on that friend of yours, by the way. And I’m going under, by the way. I’ve got friends really worked hard, one of my buddies and road warriors and professional speakers. Sometimes when we get together, we’re just throwing numbers at each other. When you hear two 18 and 2 42, we’re talking about the nights out giving presentations. And this guy was real road warrior and he finished. He was done. That’s the end of it. And then he sure was for a few months, but his personality just wouldn’t allow him to just sit in a couch. So I’m going to take the under on your friend, but I don’t want to taunt her. We’ll just let her be if she needs to rest right now. But <laugh> under,
Larry Rifkin (08:11):
I guess you and I just don’t want to be forgotten, but got to tell you, it’s tough because the culture moves so quickly and moves past you. And what’s so interesting with Barney kind of being remembered now 30 years later, something you did 30 years ago is still worthy of some attention 30 years later, and how rare is that? And so I’m taking advantage of that. And that in part is why I wrote the book too, because Barney had such an impact on an entire generation of kids, more than one generation. And it’s so interesting. Now, look, I didn’t do the documentary and there’s a lot about it that I’m probably not going to love. I hope my part I’m going to, but they do get into some of the backlash and such, and I can talk about that. But I will say that I’m just so pleased that something that I was involved with made that kind of difference,
Rob Jolles (09:10):
Right? And it made a huge difference. So let’s go there for a second. And by the way, sure folks, the book’s called No Dead Air Career Reflections from the TV Executive Who Saved Barring the Dinosaur From Extinction. So let’s talk about Extinction for a second or at least the documentary. I’m not that thrilled with the name but I think it may open a door for a conversation. I love you, hate Me. Talk to me about this documentary a little bit.
Larry Rifkin (09:39):
Well, to the degree that I know what’s in it, because I haven’t seen it, I’ve been interviewed for three hours for it. I know I’m only in it for a bit of time. Someone I know who screened it told me You’re in it, but you’re not in it a lot. And my daughter, my daughter’s in it, which is even more important. At the time, she was four years of age. And I’ll tell you the simple story that brings me to you probably today, and that is Super Bowl Sunday, 1991. I walk into a home video store in my little town here in Prospect Connecticut where I still live. And my daughter wanted a video in those days of vhs, as you probably recall, right? Right, right. Think you’re old enough. Anyway,
Rob Jolles (10:22):
<laugh> not bragging, but yeah, you’re not losing me. My son worked at a blockbuster. All right, let’s keep, okay, I’m with you.
Larry Rifkin (10:28):
This predates Blockbuster. And we walk in and I’m one of the lower shelves, which is good marketing when you’re really trying to reach the youngest among us. And she picked this Barney in the Backyard Gang video out. And she was not a big video file, Rob. I mean, she really wasn’t, but she really wanted to bring it home. And I said, sure. Looks innocuous enough. It was called A Day at the Beach. And voila, she wanted to watch that over and over and over, and I had to go in to see what was going on because I had to reverse the tape for her and such in those days. And I sat down and said, well, this might be worth taking a look at. Now, I was the head of programming for Connecticut Public Television, and people have to understand how public television works. If you noticed, and Rob, you may even find this interesting and surprising. PBS does not produce any program pbs.
Rob Jolles (11:24):
Oh,
Larry Rifkin (11:25):
Yeah. It’s interesting. People don’t, that’s a key difference between PBS and other networks because PBS is not a network. And I’ll explain why. When we were the National Educational Television Service way back when, W G B H and W N E T, and I love them, and I took a lot of scraps off their tables being in Connecticut when somebody said, I can’t work with G B H, they want to own my property, what about you at CP T V? Can I work with you? So we became one of those opportunistic stations. Well, there was a call at that time in 1991 for some new children’s programming because while we had the best Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, we needed more quantity because cable television was having such an impact on children’s television with Nickelodeon. So they put out this call for new programming, and I was not going to answer the call because I didn’t have anything.
(12:28)
Rob and children’s programming is the holy grail of public television. And if you’re going to get into that game, you better know what you’re doing. Because some of these producers like Children’s Television Workshop at the time, they were magnificent and Mr. Rogers and so many others. So with that said, I called Cheryl Leach the day after I sat down to watch what this Barney character did. Now, this was an early adaptation of Barney. Barney’s changed colors, at least the Hughes of Purple many different times. And the Barney character and costume and approach has changed dramatically if you watch it over the years. Clearly, we had to make many changes to satisfy P B S, but I called Cheryl Leach the creator the next day, that Monday after the Super Bowl Sunday. And I said, Cheryl, have you ever thought of pbs? And she said, P B S, well, in a kind of Texas twang, tell me more.
(13:32)
And so I did. And about four months later, we walked away with 2.25 million from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and we co-produced Connecticut Public Television along with the Lions Group, and then some new partners that came along who bought Barney later. And there we were about 18 years later into this incredible ride that we took. I never imagined it. I call it my innocent find. And it was all because, and here’s a life lesson. Listen to those little ones around you when they have insights that you can’t have. So why was I as an adult, able to see the potential of Barney? I listened to my daughter.
Rob Jolles (14:18):
You had a subject matter expert sitting there right at your hip,
Larry Rifkin (14:21):
Right? My focus group. And the truth is that Barney is a hard thing for a lot of adults, as we could tell, with the backlash to understand because it’s not written on two levels. And they were used to that as it was Sesame Street. They were used to being able to sit down with their child and really be entertained as well. And Sesame Street was very conscious about attracting that older audience to go along with the young kids. We never played to the two audiences. We played only to the audience. We were intending,
Rob Jolles (14:54):
Well, but let’s go to that backlash. I had kids that were kind of Barney’s age. It was a sweet spot for that Barney character. But when I hear there’s a backlash, what would be the problem with a purple dinosaur certainly seemed harmless enough.
Larry Rifkin (15:13):
Well, I added a new chapter to the book. No, dead Air. Oh, I’m sorry. Shameless plug. I’m I’m sorry there.
Rob Jolles (15:20):
Oh, you don’t say it. I am. Not only are we going get that book from Amazon, we got people who are going to be writing reviews on it. So keep going. It would be a great chapter. I want to hear about it.
Larry Rifkin (15:30):
Well, in the new chapter, I tried to answer that question about the backlash, and I kind of gave you some hints early on. Number one, Barney was one of those things that came into a household. And with a two and a half year old, three year old, even three and a half, four, a lot of the dictating as to what happens in that household really is still controlled by the parent, and they are able to monitor and modulate what it is that child is seeing. And oftentimes that child is subject to the whims and the interests of the older child in the family. So if I’m watching Power Rangers at age seven, oftentimes that three-year-old well sits there and says, I guess I’ll watch this because I trust my older brother, but it doesn’t really meet my needs. Well, when they found Barney, they found something explosive in their mind because we had Barney studied by two wonderful people at Yale University right down the road from me.
(16:34)
And you know what they found, Rob? They found that Barney had a hundred learning moments in every program, and in fact, what they called it was the nearly perfect preschool program. Now, a lot of adults can’t see that, and a lot of adults were a little upset. Here’s this kid telling me that they want everything associated with this character, and I don’t get it. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. So it was a disruptor in many families early on before that normal maturation takes place and they begin to think for themselves. They wanted every product related to the second thing was what I mentioned earlier, it’s not written on both levels. Third thing, for a lot of us guys who aren’t as sensitive perhaps as the moms in the household, who is this guy? And why do I have to emulate and be as kind as he is and as willing to accept the child on their own terms?
(17:34)
I don’t do that. I scold that child. I don’t like this character. He’s too sweet. And of course, we’ve become so cynical in our society. And then I want you to think about one other thing that I don’t think a lot of people consider, but let’s go back to the 1990s now in the documentary, I think what they’re trying to say is this where America began to come apart, this backlash against Barney, this vitriol and anger against something so sweet, so well designed, so perfectly tailored to that child. Was that a hint as to where we are today? And that’s one of the things, and I give them credit, we’re trying to plumb that. Now, some might consider that farfetched, but let me throw this on the table. We had always had an enemy America up until 1989, the fall of the Berlin wall. And so we had communism, we had Soviet communism.
(18:34)
Well, we lost that in the nineties. So it was a pretty tranquil time, albeit Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton, and we had government shutdowns and we had some things, but in general, it was that period between the end of the Cold War and the beginning of nine 11, and the impact that’s had on our society and all the tumble sins. So maybe Barney was a perfect foil. Now, I will say one other thing. I always encouraged our partners, the Lions Group, who still controlled the commercial interest. We got a piece of things, and I don’t complain about the deal we made though. There was a thing called Barney Gate, which they cut out of the documentary. They asked me about with Bob Dole and Larry Presler, a senator from South Dakota saying, why doesn’t Barney pay for public broadcasting every decade? There are those in Congress who say, why doesn’t this group play for public television, even though the amount that the government puts into public broadcasting is minuscule. But having said that, I think one of the other things to consider is the fact that there was this period of time when America was looking to perhaps again, find a foil. And the fact that everyone in America seemed to profiteer off of Barney, not only did our partners very aggressively market it, but it was everywhere, Rob. Oh, yeah. So a pushback can come. You saw Barney at the gas station, wasn’t real, wasn’t licensed. You saw him at a birthday party that you had for your child. I
Rob Jolles (20:19):
Saw him on Saturday Night Live with Charles Barkley.
Larry Rifkin (20:21):
Well, a lot of those, yes. Cultural icons who did use Barney as well. I mean, how many things that we do in public broadcasting seep out into the culture the way this one did? Right? And so for some people it was a bit overwhelmed.
Rob Jolles (20:37):
Well, let me just poke one piece here. Sure. Mr. Rogers, I certainly, now it’s funny how history makes us look a lot more kind than we were, I believe, without being in your industry, there was some pushback on Mr. Rogers, but I consider Mr. Rogers similar perhaps demographically to Barney. Was there a big pushback on Mr. Rogers, or was that okay?
Larry Rifkin (21:04):
Oh, you know, are so dead on. You must have read no dead air. No,
Rob Jolles (21:11):
But here’s no dead air, ladies and gentlemen. Go ahead.
Larry Rifkin (21:15):
But in truth, okay, let me go step back. The singers at Yale who evaluated Barney, they were big fans of Fred Rogers, and they felt instinctively before they did their research, that they were going to find that there was this lineage from Fred Rogers to Barney. And in fact, I think when you do look at the two, you see a lot of the emotional development that a young child needs, that kind of support. You see cognition, but you also see physical activity. There’s a whole range of things that we tried to do in virtually every episode. And I say in the book that if you want to go back and look for something analogous in our culture, go back to Bob Dylan <laugh> in 1965 at the Newport Folk Festival. Remember when he came out in his second portion and went electric, and his fans like went wild, like what happened to Bob Dylan here and they booed him and such? Well, to me, Barney was Fred Rogers going electric. And there is a clear line. And in the book, actually, I do quote Fred Rogers, if you’ll give me one moment.
Rob Jolles (22:33):
Now, what we’re waiting for, ladies and gentlemen, is Larry is actually going back and getting a document. He now has it in his hands. He’s ready to roll. All right. He’s showing it to me, but we got people listening. So tell people what I’m looking at right
Larry Rifkin (22:45):
Now. Okay, Mr. Rogers neighborhood, that is his letterhead. Dear Larry, this goes back to April 7th, 1993, just as I was about to write, to thank you for being with us last week at Yale. Your gracious letter arrived. Thank you for it. And for helping with the Patel Chapel presentation, I would so much like to see and hear the tape, which Barney made for the occasion that was such a thoughtful gesture on all of your parts. Fred Rogers, to be on a panel with Fred Rogers. I cannot tell you, I mean, this was surreal for me because he was an idol. When he would come to a public television gathering, Rob, you had to see this. I mean, everyone was hushed to a point where you could hear a pin drop in a large area. And he was so remarkable. And every statement was measured in many ways, I don’t think people understand this, Rob.
(23:48)
He saved public broadcasting at a very nascent time in its history. He went before Congress when Congress was about ready in the first incarnation to do away with funding for this new thing, the corporation, Republic Broadcasting. And he sat before these legislators and he told them stories, and he told them of the importance and the difference that one program can make in the life of a disabled child or a child who just didn’t have the opportunity to get the learning and development that was so necessary. And at the end of the hearing, I think it was John, pastor and the Democrats were in control at this time, he said, alright, Fred Rogers, you’re incredible. You’ve got our money. And that was it. No, Fred Rogers really turned around the fate of public broadcasting.
Rob Jolles (24:41):
Well, I’m not sure which movie, because there’s two of them out there. There’s the Tom Hanks version piece, but in one of the movies or documentaries that was out, they show clips from that and they show them before document coming in. Yeah, pretty much saying that’s the end of it. There’s going to be a Forget the funding, and Mr. Rogers got done with them, right?
Larry Rifkin (25:05):
But he was blind. But you remember, and a lot of people don’t because today he’s so venerated, and maybe it’s because he’s working against what we see going on in our culture today, the kindness, the understanding, the empathy. And boy, do we need to get some of that back.
Rob Jolles (25:22):
Do we ever, couple things. First of all I try and preach to the audience, and I haven’t preached to me, I had Tom Hopkins on just about a week ago talking about how important it is to actually physically write a letter, how meaningful it is to him when he receives one, and how important it is for him to write one. And the fact that you’ve got that letter framed in your office right now is the testament to how important it is. And he’s referring to a letter that you wrote him in that letter. So I don’t want to lose that. I don’t want to bury that lead, so to speak. So kudos to you for writing it. And of course, anything that Mr. Rogers does to us doesn’t seem to surprise us anymore. Genuinely one of the, seemed to be one of the kindest human beings to ever walk this planet. Alright, let’s shift a little bit. I promised in the opening, in the introduction, I said, well, we got a guy who, who’s used to fighting for an idea, and that’s you. And I’ve got entrepreneurs that are listening right now. I’ve got people that are getting knocked down and getting back up. Salespeople, even people in career transition.
(26:38)
The instinct a lot of times is to just sort of drop back. We start having that kind of negative thinking, but you didn’t stop fighting. Give our listeners a thought or two to help them. Somebody with an idea that is up against it right now. What would you tell?
Larry Rifkin (26:59):
Well, I would tell them that if they still believe it after everybody’s tried to dismiss it, deny it, destroy it, then go for it. If you lose your own confidence and faith in that which you put forward at the outset because of all the resistance that you met, you see, one of the interesting things in the book I think, is people don’t know that Barney was canceled. That’s why the subtitle, the TV executive who Saved Barney from Extinction, I brought it to P B s, I brought it to television, but I also had to save it within the month that we went on the air. No one knows that, right? Because we still have 30 episodes that were already built by virtue of that first grant that we got, as I mentioned, about four months after the whole introduction. But we were not going to be allowed to go forward.
(27:54)
Now, I could have stopped right there and said, okay, this was fun. I spent a year of my life in development on this project. A lot of people, even at my station, Rob didn’t know what the heck is he doing? He’s always down in Dallas, he’s running around, he’s talking about this Barney thing. And it could have been a bust for all I know, who knew? But I didn’t stop there because I believed in it. And I must say this Cheryll Leach, when I called her to tell her that I, and she’s the creator of Barney, when I called her to tell her that we had gotten the call from PS that they were not going to fund us going forward before they had any empirical evidence of how well we had done early on before they could feel the ground shaking under individual stations across the country before they gave us any shot.
(28:50)
The people who green litted at P B s at the time had left. So we were an orphan. And the new group said, eh, we don’t know. And that happens oftentimes with a new group of people at an institution. They want to deny that anything happened before them really is worthy of any further continuance or consideration. So I called Cheryl to tell her, and you have to know Cheryl Leach. And by the way, in this documentary, there’s a lot of pathos in Cheryl’s life that is brought to light in this peacock documentary. And I just hope that not too much of it is because that’s not really germane to the Barney story as a bar. I mean, her son who was really inspiring her to build this series is pointed out in this documentary. And I just think we should remember him for what it was that she tried to do for him that helped benefit the entire world.
(29:50)
But with all that said when I look back, I could have given up, but Cheryl said to me, Larry, it’ll work out. And it was such a refreshing thing. She didn’t say, oh darn it, you led me down a primrose path. You told me that the p b s system was salubrious, that it was ready to accept us. No, she took it very much in stride. So what did I do after that? Again, I had to mobilize what I consider to be almost a political campaign, Rob, because you see the other thing that people don’t understand, and I kind of short shrifted that story about how P B S programming comes about because W G B H and N E T were such powerful production centers before the P B S system and the new funding through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Don’t forget, and most people do, we were part of the Great Society.
(30:47)
We were part of Lyndon Johnson’s idea about a better America, not only the civil rights and voting rights, but public broadcasting. And if people really think about this, the B B C was always the premier broadcaster in Britain, and HK was always the first and premier broadcaster in Japan. That’s the way it happens in most countries, but not the United States. It’s always the private interests. And then the public guys have to try to sneak their nose under the tent and say, Hey, what about us and public service broadcasting? So with that, G B H and N E T agreed to the new structure, but one thing they wouldn’t do, because they had already developed these production centers, I dunno if you saw on HBO O that wonderful series about Julia Child, but that was early. Oh, it was fantastic about the making of Julia, but that was way in the early days of public broadcasting.
(31:48)
So we had to accept the fact that P B S could be born, but it could not produce any programming. They had to rely on stations like G B H and N E T, who still do the bulk of the programming for the system and independent producers like Ken Burns. So with that said a, it’s a hard thing to get something on P B S because they do have their standards and they are strict and they make producers accountable for the work that they do. But decision making generally is at the lower level stations decide often what goes on and what doesn’t go on the air. Now, we did seed control to the National Programming Executive at P B S around this time, and this was the first, and I think only decision that new programming executive made on behalf of the system, not in a marketplace of stations that was overturned by the membership of the stations.
(32:54)
They went to them at this meeting that we had in 1992 in San Francisco, just after Barney had gone on the air a few months, our annual meeting. And by me feeding them a lot of information about how well Barney was doing, and they started feeling it in their market, they pushed back, they resisted this new national programming executive. And the stations, thanks to our efforts brought Barney back on the air. One of the things I did, I brought Barney to Connecticut, we pledged one morning, I came a little close to host selling, but Barney never offered a plush or never did any of that. We were careful, but we came a little close to the line. I’ll admit that, Rob, sometimes you’ve got to go right up to the line.
Rob Jolles (33:45):
<laugh>, take a peek over that line. See, I hear you.
Larry Rifkin (33:49):
And we raised $50,000 in a morning. You know what we normally raised in a morning, what about a thousand, 2000. Wow. Then we brought Barney to the Hartford Civic Center, and I don’t know if you remember the story, but the Hartford Civic Center in 1978, during the blizzard of 78, the roof collapsed. I don’t know if you recall that. No. Yeah, it was pretty well, it was in all the papers. But rate, I guess the point is that here we are in 1992, in June of that year, we brought Barney to the Hartford Civic Center, and I thought the roof was going to come off again. It was as close as I’ve ever been to being part of a children’s Beatlemania. It was remarkable. And I sent that tape all around the country, and then all of a sudden in these different markets, Miami and Baltimore and Washington, they all started feeling this Barney thing. But when you’re in a ivory tower, like a lot of decision makers are who don’t get out on the street to see what’s really happening at P B S, they had no clue of what was happening with this phenomenon called Barney.
Rob Jolles (34:56):
Yeah, no, I remember the first time I sort of walked by when my kids were watching and an eyebrow went up and I went, who the heck is that? <laugh>? What is that we’re watching? It didn’t scare me. I just thought, is that where we are right now? What happened to Mr. Watches? Where? Where’s going on?
Larry Rifkin (35:18):
But he put on a suit, jumping around,
Rob Jolles (35:21):
But you know, hit it. We can intellectualize this all. We want you sending that tape around of that phenomena visually, that’s really all you needed. It sounds to me that would’ve me. I can tell you that. But I also want to dissect a little of what you said because we’re talking to entrepreneurs right now. My concerns a lot of times with people is they get an idea and the idea dies in their brain or when they get pushed back. And so I’ve always developed this concept of, you know, watch a boxer. I’ve never seen, the boxer doesn’t quit on the stool. A boxer will go in there and their job is to fight the people that love them. The corner people, that’s who throws the towel in. The boxer doesn’t run over and grab the towel and throw it in boxer boxers and those who handle the boxer keep an eye out.
(36:16)
And I’m always hoping that as an entrepreneur myself, I’ll, I’ll be 30 years at it in April. I never wanted to quit on my stool. Try and every successful person I’ve ever met fails plenty. But you don’t intellectualize the failure. You have to experience it. You go, you go right to the line as you said, you do everything you can. And if that doesn’t work good, we can look at each other in the eye and say, we didn’t quit on the stool. We went as hard as we could now. Now we’ll make Barney Brown. If we have to <laugh> now, we’ll shorten him up a little bit, maybe change his boy. We’ll figure this out. But we’re not quitting in our head. We’re go. We’re going and we’re going hard. And that’s something that’s that I applaud you for because you are clearly a man who was not going to take no for an answer.
Larry Rifkin (37:07):
Well, I was always a very aggressive guy in any situation I got into, I say in the book, like The song by Al Anderson, who is one of the best songwriters in Nashville today, but we owned him in Connecticut because he is a Connecticut guy and he was part of N R B Q, which is a remarkable group group here in Connecticut, the Wild Reeds. And he wrote a song called Another Place I Don’t Belong. In other words, I never felt comfortable in almost any role I was assigned, but somebody believed in me or somebody saw something in me that suggested I had that potential. And thank goodness that they gave me the encouragement. And I think from that point in any of the roles that I’ve assumed over the years, I took it from there. But I took it from there really out of fear of failure.
(38:03)
Now, I don’t know whether there are a lot of people who really get inspired by the potential for success, but I know in my case, I didn’t want to embarrass myself. I didn’t want to embarrass my institution. I really wanted to give purpose meaning and some integrity to whatever I did. And I think that really does come through in the book that I really made a lot of decisions based on my own best instincts. And a lot of those instincts I think came from a modest Jewish upbringing, but of from a man and a woman who both left the earth as innocent and untouched by some of the travail of the world. They really believed in themselves and believed in people. And it’s funny, when my mother died, my mother, after my father died very young, went to work at a prison and she became the assistant to the head of the culinary program at the prison.
(39:01)
And the day of her funeral, I got a knock on the door, and it was one of those prisoners. And he said to me, I just had to come by to tell you what your mother meant to me and how every day that I was inside, at least I knew I would see a woman who had such an incredible spirit about her, that it was really uplifting even in this very dull and lifeless place. And that, I can’t tell you what that meant to me, to have someone like that come and talk to me about my mom, and those are the types of people that I was raised by. So anyway, it all kind of came together, but I never really believed totally in myself. And I’ve got to say that I always had a parachute and a safety net, and I want to credit you and other entrepreneurs because oftentimes you are out there working on the basis of a belief, but there may be nobody to save you from the fall that may occur. I always had the comfort of an institution, whether it was a station or whether it was other places I worked. So I was always aggressive, but I was doing it in the context, in the confines of an institution, guys, you really do change the world. So congratulations to you.
Rob Jolles (40:25):
Well, I appreciate that. And yeah, it’s been quite a career that made another nice book title, net list, the Rob Jolles story.
Larry Rifkin (40:36):
No, I didn’t say witless. You said netless
Rob Jolles (40:38):
I said netless. That’s an N ladies and gentleman,
Larry Rifkin (40:41):
Which by the way, is the successor to Netflix.
Rob Jolles (40:44):
There you go. There you go. Only no dead air career reflections from the TV executive who save Barney the dinosaur from Extinction. And don’t you all worry about that documentary, because we know there’s at least a couple of clips in there. They’re going to be very pro Barney. How about this? How about if you were talking to somebody right now and who wants to pursue a career in broadcasting similar to the way you did and have, what would you do? What advice would you provide for them?
Larry Rifkin (41:14):
Oh, you remember the old Greek philosopher who said he really wanted to articulate better, who was a Sisyphus or syphilis? No, no, I’ve forgotten the name now. No,
Rob Jolles (41:25):
I’m sorry. I think you had it right before. Yeah.
Larry Rifkin (41:29):
And he said, you know, articulate by putting all these marbles in your mouth, and then one by one, you take the marbles out. And that’s how I describe broadcasting. Once you’ve lost all your marbles, then you go in. Yeah, no, not really. No, that was supposed to be a joke, Ralph. I’m not saying the laughter. Okay, wait. Broadcasting is a wonderful career. It’s a lot of work. I just want people to think about it. I don’t think people appreciate the teamwork that’s involved in any one television production. Radio, you can be something of a one man band. And I love radio for that. And I went back to it after all the tumult of 27 years in public broadcasting. But I will say that television, when you see all those credits at the end, it’s not only because we love to be self-congratulatory, though that is part of it. Have you ever seen an industry that gives itself more awards, <laugh> on television? Congratulations to the person who was the second grip who held the gun that well, nevermind. We don’t want to go into guns on the set.
Rob Jolles (42:46):
Well Yeah, that’s a little touchy right now, but I got the grip part that you got started. Well, yes,
Larry Rifkin (42:51):
<laugh>. But bottom line, it takes so many elements to go. And what I just saw recently where Tom Hanks said that only four of the movies that he’s done over these many years were really worthy and that he would consider good. That’s remarkable. But he also said in that interview that when you think about the magic of taking an idea that you think might tell a story that this person or that could relate to, and then bringing out that script. And that’s difficult enough as you know, and then seeing it come to life with all of the talents and arts and sciences that are represented on that screen. And there we are, rob, click, click, click, and we take it for granted. Here’s recreated a 1930 scene perfectly down to every detail to make certain there’s no anachronisms in that scene. And we sit there going, doesn’t interest me.
(43:55)
And think about all the content that’s out there. I can’t even imagine how today we’re able to populate the broadcast business with all this incredible content, at least technically derived oftentimes in the storytelling as well, to populate all these channels. So you asked me about broadcasting today, while some people will say there’s less opportunity, in many ways, there’s more because there is so much content. Now, the problem that I worry about is the debasement of a lot of that product because everybody’s their own television station on YouTube or other places. And I hope that people can discern the difference between material that is professionally produced with all of those talents involved, and something that is curated that somebody else had to look at and say, that is worthy and has to make a really critical decision for their own executive future that this is worth putting on the air as opposed to uncurated material. Now I say that, and I’m back in two businesses that are uncurated podcasting, where you decide, I don’t think there’s an editor behind you. I don’t think that there’s a programming executive in your rear-view mirror looking to see what it is that you’ve done. And I trust myself because I’ve had so many years as one of those gatekeepers, as one of those curators. But so much content that is not curated is garbage, frankly.
Rob Jolles (45:32):
Yeah. Muds, up muds the, well a little bit from me, so I certainly understand what you’re saying, but go ahead. I didn’t mean to cut you off.
Larry Rifkin (45:41):
No I just think it’s unfortunate that certain people think they can go right from zero to 80 and they really can’t. But having said that, let me explain. One thing that I say in the book. In days when I was getting my start in radio, there were four local radio stations in my community, a small community of about 300,000 people, and they were all local shifts, 24 7. So many of us could get our opportunity and our start, but we had a program director and we had a general manager, and if we weren’t cutting it, they would let us know. In fact, in the book I talk about the one time now that’s unusual in a broadcasting career. I only got fired once and it was a part-time situation, so I was very fortunate. But having said that, today people go on the air without anybody looking over their shoulder and help, I’m sorry. And helping them along. And that’s really unfortunate because we all need those mentors and I try to honor some of those people in this book. And I do use the book to frame a life to admit to the fact that I had no real plan. The plan was built along this road that was jagged that had these switchbacks and turnarounds and changes, but it was also built on the relationships that I built and the confidence that others showed in me.
Rob Jolles (47:10):
Right. Well, you can certainly tell that Larry is a broadcaster. He’s not short on words and no, hey, I have to get my words. Keep crossing them out When we’re past that, we move past that one. I’ll leave that one alone. I’m going to, I’m got two more questions and you need to be fast on these answers. All right, I will. And they’re simple. One is, because I read the same Tom Hanks article that you read, and he didn’t name the books the movies although the precious for, I’m going to hold you to just two, your two favorite Tom Hanks movies. Did he you think he might have on his list?
Larry Rifkin (47:48):
I think the Green Mile and Forrest Gump
Rob Jolles (47:51):
Okay. And I’m going to go with Philadelphia
Rob Jolles (47:55):
And then just because it’s a personal thing with me, I love that thing you do that just really told a story that I could identify with. I think that was one of my dreams as a guy in a band. Even now, you should have a little connection to that thing you do. Oh, absolutely. You’re the drummer, you’re the star <laugh>, you’re shades, you’re whatever that <laugh>. So alright, you did good on that one. How about mentors? A couple of mentors along your way? I think we heard one, but I’m just curious.
Larry Rifkin (48:24):
Well, Jerry Franklin, who came to Connecticut Public Television after I did, I was his public relations person at first, and he saw in me the fact that I understood more about the state of Connecticut than anybody else he had there. And he said, you’re going to be my program director. I said, what? I didn’t even know what that really meant. And then I would say, ed Flynn, a dear friend of mine in radio who was my first program director and we’re still good friends. He’s about 87, 88 now. We still talk. And he believed in me and always talks about the fact I always followed format, always followed form.
Rob Jolles (49:04):
Good. And I think we’re talking about how things have changed. I do believe we all need mentors. And I worry sometimes that seems to have almost fallen out of favor. And certainly my dad’s my mentor, but that’s a given for me. The one or two people on my list, same thing changed the trajectory of my life. But I was looking for him and I listened to him, and I hope others will do as such, because whenever you hear from a person like Larry with an incredible story and an amazing life, there’s usually a couple mentors that were right there on that foundation of this story you’re hearing. And that’s one of the reasons why I always like to park a little bit of time just to hear about one or two of ’em because that’s part of the story too. One other thing, Larry, I want to double back on.
(49:55)
Just one thing. I want you to know your story about your mom touched me and as such, just for the moral of that story, one of ’em. So I will tell you as you hold up, you held up something for me, which no one can see. I’m holding up something for you, which no one can see, but I’m going to read it to you and I keep it right here with me. We weren’t put on this earth to make a living. We were put on this earth to make a difference. You have made a difference, Larry, and I think that book sounds incredible. I’m assuming we can get it at Amazon or any online store. Am I right?
Larry Rifkin (50:27):
Amazon is the best place to go.
Rob Jolles (50:29):
Good. Any audio on that book yet?
Larry Rifkin (50:31):
No. I was going to do it. I should have done it, but I got so busy with promoting the book in Connecticut, my home state, and I just have not sat down to do that.
Rob Jolles (50:43):
Okay. Well, I’m here by ordering you to sit down <laugh>, in the next six months, I’m going to probably check back with you too, so don’t mess with me. Alright. Get an audio book done. Because there are just some of those that people that need to hear these, this story of yours and they’re, everybody’s a reader. We all learn differently. So I’m, many of my books are not audio books, but the light is later. Ones are, because I got the memo and oh, by the way, I think, I hope you read it. You’re a broadcaster. You should. Yeah. It’s funny when you read your own book out loud, it sticks with you a little bit differently. I mean, all of, I’m like, yeah, that’s really good. Yeah,
Larry Rifkin (51:25):
Yeah.
Rob Jolles (51:27):
Yeah, I don’t want to hear the or, but yes, there is a little bit of aura going on <laugh>, including a typo now and then where I’m going. How was that missed? I know, I know. All right. How do people get ahold of you?
Larry Rifkin (51:38):
If you’d like to go to larryrifkin.net, you can find me there. If you want to go to the Facebook page for America Trends podcast, that is at trends podcast on Facebook or Twitter you can guess in either of those cases, you can find them
Rob Jolles (51:58):
Good. And that’s just so you know, that’s L A R R Y R I F K I N .net. So that’s how you’re going to find ’em. We’ll have it up on our homepage two when we look with this podcast. And well, I can’t thank you enough. I’ve learned a lot about you, a lot about the Big Purple Dinosaur, but I also learned about a guy that was not going to take no for an answer, and that’s something that all three elements really appealed to me. So thank you so much for being on this show. I’m grateful.
Larry Rifkin (52:27):
Really a pleasure. It’s interesting whenever you start an interview, as you know, don’t know whether you’re going to sink or whether there’s a relationship because you’re building a new relationship with every interview. Yeah, we’ve never spoken before, but you feel like an old soul and a friend. So very nice to talk with you.
Rob Jolles (52:45):
Thank you. That’s grateful for that comment, and I feel the same way about you. So thank you folks. We’ll do it again as well as we can next time. Until then, stay safe.
Outro (53:01):
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy today’s show, please rate and recommend it on iTunes, outcasts, wherever you get your podcast. You can also get more information on this show and rob@jolles.com.