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April 10th, 2023
Burnout is increasingly rampant in the business world and we need new approaches, but that doesn’t mean these new approaches can’t be adapted from traditional wisdom. Author and Rabbi Matthew Ponak sits down with Rob and shares some relevant ideas of Judaism from his book, Embodied Kabbalah that are accessible to people of all backgrounds… and he’s right!
In this Pocket Sized Pep Talk, you’ll learn:
- The connection and some new/old approaches adapted from traditional wisdom.
- How spirituality plays a part in the workplace?
- The value of adapting Shabbat—the Jewish day of rest, for everyone to prevent burnout, and perhaps living a more meaningful, fulfilling life.
- How his message connects to the necessity to be resilient and bounce back from customer rejections.
- How can we gain more focus at work and use our time more effectively.
- The school of thought that suggests avoiding a conversation about problems, or avoiding problems instead of dealing with them do more damage than good.
- The role social media plays in creating an anti-social dilemma.
- Mentors that have helped Matthew shape his journey.
To learn more about this guest:
Rob Jolles (00:00):
Burnout is increasingly rampant in the business world, and we need new approaches. But that doesn’t mean that these new approaches can’t be adopted from traditional wisdom. Let’s have ourselves a pocket-sized pep talk because my guest today who happens to be a rabbi, believes that some of the most relevant ideas of Judaism can be made accessible to people of all backgrounds. Let’s just see this right?
Intro (00:25):
A pocket size pep talk, the podcast that can help energize your business and your life with a quick inspiring message. Now, here’s your host, Rob Jolles.
Rob Jolles (00:39):
Today’s guest, Rabbi Matthew Ponak is a teacher of Jewish mysticism, spiritual counselor and the co-founder of the Macor Institute, an online spiritual center for embodied practice. He also holds a master’s degree in contemplative religions and is certified as a focusing professional to guide others to deeper self-knowledge and healing. He’s also the author of Embodied Kabbala, and that’s why we’ve got him on the show. Nice to see you, Matthew, and welcome aboard.
Matthew Ponak (01:08):
Thanks so much for having me, Rob.
Rob Jolles (01:11):
It’s a pleasure. So let’s dive in and with you. I want to get right to the connection that we started with and maybe kind of climb into the heart of burnout. So give me something that we represent, a new approach that’s adapted from actually traditional wisdom.
Matthew Ponak (01:28):
The notion that people can work and work and work and then stop, and that their minds will stop as well, is completely a fallacy. It actually takes a great amount of effort and preparation and intention to have a restful, a truly restful experience. It is not something that comes automatically. And so tapping into the Jewish wisdom of Shabbat, the day of rest, which isn’t simply about stopping work, it’s a very active process of nourishing our bodies and doing things we enjoy, and in general, just orienting to everything that’s good and right in the world. That is what I believe is very valuable for people when thinking about burnout in the workplace. Today,
Rob Jolles (02:27):
I’ve got some good friends in New York, my friend, and I’ve known him for 40 years, is a fertility specialist, and he’s happens to be a practicing Jew, and he is the most driven, workaholic, sorry, Richard person that I know. He knows it. We talk about it a lot. And yet, come sundown on Friday, everything stops. And quite frankly, I don’t think he’d be alive. Certainly don’t think he’d still be married if he didn’t have that mechanism. And it was immovable. Believe me, I’ve tried. Okay. It was immovable. So it’s not something that I practice, but it’s something that I’ve seen practice by somebody that who really needed it. What I love about what you’re saying, Matthew, is that we don’t have to wait for the warning signals. It’s a really nice routine. So walk us through that routine, because I just mentioned sundown Friday, right? So how does that work?
Matthew Ponak (03:32):
So just to name this straight off the bat, I’m not suggesting people do this Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. This is in the same way that people don’t have to be Buddhist monks to meditate today and practice mindfulness, even though traditionally that’s where it was happening, right? I am promoting a way of utilizing and gaining from this tradition in order to enhance our lives, that it doesn’t have to be a full day, a week. It can be in the evening, it can be on the weekday, it could be a Sunday, it could be at lunch. The basic flow traditionally is now it starts, the day starts on Friday evening, but the preparation is happening before that because the, one of the central elements of the Shabbat practice is what in Hebrew is called on egg, which means delight, and it’s actually about delighting ourselves and feeling good. And so if someone has a particular food that they like, they’re supposed to save it for that day and that’ll be their day of deliciousness. Usually more napping. Their people are engaging with more gratitude on that day and starts in the evening. There are meals, delicious meals with song and celebration and family.
Rob Jolles (04:56):
And family. Sorry.
Matthew Ponak (04:57):
And family and
Rob Jolles (04:58):
Family part. That’s a big deal.
Matthew Ponak (05:00):
Yes. Family and guests. I mean, someone doesn’t have to have a family, right, to go home to do this practice, but that is a very family oriented occasion. And then they essentially are some combination of during the week, the prayers that people say in a traditional Jewish mindset have to do with the central prayers. They have to do with things that we are lacking. There are prayers they’re asking, oh, we need knowledge and wisdom and justice and health and all of those things. But on Shabbat, the prayers have more to do with gratitude and thanks. And so we’re supposed to come to a place during that time where we don’t see the world as anything other than whole. The world is as it should be, and we can say that to ourselves as a mantra. But the way it really gets in there is by spending time with loved ones, doing things that feel like celebrations, and by nourishing our bodies as well as our hearts so that it’s not just a thought process, we can actually enter into a space where we feel good and thankful, and that is what leads to refreshment.
Rob Jolles (06:09):
No, that makes a lot of sense. I, I’ve always preached for people to maintain journals because to me, we all want to sort of capture and assess what’s going on, but when you do a journal, you be what I call methodically observant. You’re not just observant, but there’s a method to your observance. And what I like where you’re coming from here is that you’re actually putting a method in, I’m also glad you got me off the Friday night thing and got this to a much bigger picture, which is a method moment that’s planned to because we can’t wait till we feel like it. We’ve all learned how that works. That’s planned. I’ll throw one other thing at you real quickly. When the pandemic started, I guess in my own way, I created my own little Shabbat. The weeks we were all cooped up, we were all stuck inside.
(07:02)
We weren’t really seeing people. Days were dragging on and on, weeks were dragging on and on. So I created something that I called, I still knew it by the way, weekend Wednesday. And Weekend Wednesday was my way of doing what you’re saying in a sense, which is, okay, it’s in the middle of the week, I’m still going to do my work, but come five, I’m going to pretend it’s a weekend night. Well, what would I do on a weekend night? Sort of, I mean that reward, slowing it down, I’m sitting down with my wife having a meal just pausing. And I can tell you that with the pandemic easing still got my week on Wednesdays. I haven’t gotten rid of ’em yet. So
Matthew Ponak (07:47):
I think a lot of us could benefit from a weekend Wednesday every night of the week, in fact, and finding it’s really all about balance, but
(07:58)
A lot of people have had the experience of working on a project, could be any kind of project and getting stuck, a writer’s block or some version of that for planning presentations. And the attitude here is that we actually, the more we try to continue solving that problem, the farther we can get away from it, sometimes the best thing to do is completely turn away from it and turn towards something enjoyable, turn towards something. For me, I love walking in the woods. I love going to any natural places, and I get this sense of being lost in them. I remember when I was a student and I was writing an essay, it was stuck. And so I said, I’m putting this down. And I just went for a walk and about 15 minutes along I forgot about the paper and I just enjoyed the beauty of the trees around me. I was living in Massachusetts at the time, and it was at that moment that the answer to the problem in the essay just came into my mind that inaction, so to speak, is sometimes the best way of solving problems. But it’s a catch 22, a paradox as we actually have to forget about it for a while and just engage with something really nourishing.
Rob Jolles (09:13):
Right? And one of the things I’m taking away right now is the planning. I is really putting it down. And so it’s funny, I talk to people who are working on books, I really don’t have the time, and I go, well, do you work out? And they go, oh yeah. Oh, work out. Well, how do you do that? I preserve and place time. Then they’ll go through with this whole method, what happens if something gets in the way? Well, I either move it or I do, it’s the right place, but there’s, it’s not, it’s immovable. So there’s certain things in our life and I think pausing and reflecting, doing the things you’re talking about, we got to put that in the category of the need to not the nice two for our own health and wellbeing and those around us too. So I think that’s nice connection. Got that one.
Matthew Ponak (10:00):
Part of the attitude there too is there’s this very ancient Jewish spiritual technology you could call it, of being accountable to other people. It’s clearly not only Jewish, but so the prayer services traditionally need 10 people to show up to even happen. And one of the major positive impacts of that on a community or on people, if people rely on you, it’s really hard to flake out. So the idea of having, let’s say it was something that you were doing with others, it could be coworkers at lunch, really, it could be something, people having a gratitude circle where they’re also just sharing food, something like that. It could be more or less formal, but if there’s a place that people are depending on you to be there for this to take place, that is actually a self-disciplined strategy that people can employ when they’re doing that. Preparation it for some people who are very, let’s say introverted, I am not one of those people, but I’ve heard they exist and I don’t know if you’re one of those people, Rob, either you’re
Rob Jolles (11:04):
No, I’m a car carrying extrovert.
Matthew Ponak (11:07):
But supposing someone, what they really need to balance them selves with was time alone. Great. On some level that’s easier, but it’s a question of how putting time aside and making it something that’s going to be appealing to do, hopefully not just appealing, but delightful, and then also finding ways to carve it out and be accountable for that.
Rob Jolles (11:29):
Yeah.
Matthew Ponak (11:29):
The other piece I just want to share, which is we’re talking about what to say yes to, but what to say, no, I am of the opinion that if someone wants to have a relaxing break either at work or on the weekend, it’s really hard to do that right now with technological devices that having our phones, it’s one thing to say, I’m going to call a friend and have a nice, but pretty soon notifications are going to pop up. And for a lot of people, that’s sometimes enough just to get them out of that mindset. So what I do also, this is a very much a practice for the Jewish Sabbath, is we don’t use our devices. There’s no phones or TVs classically. But even just in the most practical sense for me, nothing that can quite get me out of that mindset, like accidentally seeing a news article or a text message or a to-do popup. And so part of the planning is also in advance, not just putting them away, but trying to get them somewhere where it’s really hard to get to. So sometimes I’ll leave my phone at my office and I’ll go home and just have them the dinner with my family, or I’ll leave, make sure I’m just going for this walk out into the woods with no devices on me because that I know I’ll be able to just tap into what, what’s real and what’s enjoyable in the moment.
Rob Jolles (12:42):
Okay, yeah. Okay, everyone climb back out the ledge. Now it’s just a device. But that’s glad you mentioned that because that is part of it. And the traditional sense, and my friend is very traditional, the power is off. They’re not using their cell phones, they’re not using their light bulbs. They are very traditional, but they do, as I said, I I’ve witnessed this for 40 years, how valuable and important that is and how it’s a family of five children. So it’s a family of seven and how connected the family was able to stay despite the intense workload of this individual the most. I work pretty hard. I’ve never seen by work like this guy, and yet that’s how valuable it was. So good. All right, got, we got the device part now I wanted to take a running start at this next question. So I wanted to make that connection in terms of burnout, but you first person I’ve ever had on my show who wasn’t really coming from the sales world or the presentation world, and we’re walking a very thin line here about spirituality and where we bring that in. So with regards to the workplace, how should people bring their spirituality into the workplace?
Matthew Ponak (14:23):
I think the method that the mindfulness movement has taken is a really good example. It is scientifically researched. There’s good evidence behind its effectiveness for calming people down, but it really has been removed from a culturally specific or religious context. And I really believe people need to be themselves in the world and the workplace. If there was, let’s say a top-down kind of facilitation thing happening that was teaching something that wasn’t universal but felt more culturally specific or religious in a particular way, I think that that’s when it gets into trickier territory that there are elements of every spiritual tradition that are very valuable to people of any kind of background or belief system or people who have no belief system around what happens to us after we die or anything like that. But there’s a method to basically extract it or to be inspired by it and create something new. So people who can access the wisdom and the lessons from there’s, so there’s thousands of years of these teachings from all these different traditions. If we can tap into those but then distribute it or teach it in a way that isn’t about a particular belief, it’s more about something that’s practical and useful, I think that’s the best way to go about it.
Rob Jolles (16:00):
Yeah, like I said, it’s a tough line. I actually taught a program for a group. It was a very spiritual group, leave it at that. And I was really trying to help people who were struggling with their careers and really getting beaten up and losing hope. And it was a two day program. So I had quite a few modules and one of the modules I put in there was meditation. And because I practiced transcendental meditation and I thought maybe that could help. And it’s where the two worlds collided because I ran one of the programs. But by the time I got to the second one, I was asked to remove that from the participant guide. And it was the first time where I thought I had never even made a spiritual connection to that. I was just looking to get them rested and I was looking for the benefits of meditation. I really wasn’t introducing them to the yogi. But it was interesting because that’s when I started learning, wow, there’s some real tentacles here that reached deep into people.
Matthew Ponak (17:10):
It it’s really easy to overstep that. And here I was just talking about mindfulness is this incredibly accessible thing and you’re saying, well, even that even forms of meditation might not work in every environment. And that’s true. There’s some pretty tried, tested and true ones. It’s rare that someone will have a personal objection on theological grounds to gratitude, for example, or even to breathing on its own take. Let’s take a few deep breaths together before we start there. It can be these days a bit of a minefield, but in general, if there’s a way of presenting the material in the most practical, a religious way, I think that that’s the way to go about it.
Rob Jolles (17:53):
Yeah. Okay. Let’s remind everybody. The book is called Embodied, although you say tomato, I say tomato, I hear from the Rabbi, there’s a few ways to say kabbala. Now. How do you say it again?
(18:09)
Okay. Thanks to I informed him before we started. I will not be saying it that way just because I, I’m challenged on certain things, but, and we can find that book on Amazon. Okay, great. Online stores. So the reason why I like where we’re going with my next question here because I really wanted to see if we could talk about this book and really kind of work within the business community here. And so the business world requires, we get knocked down a lot, not when you’re in sales, you get knocked down a lot, but everybody gets knocked around a little bit and yet we can learn from that. How does your book speak to resiliency? How does your book speak to somebody who might be listening right now and is up against is battling hard?
Matthew Ponak (19:07):
So I would say that there are two ways generally that people approach this topic within the religious texts, within the teachings from the book. And there is a time for simply pushing through. Some people seem to be more naturally to suited to that method. Someone gets, you’re out on a sales trip and you get a big no or a very aggressive no or something like that. There are some people and some moments for each of us where the best thing to do is say, okay, well that’s not going to work. I’m going to go somewhere else.
(19:46)
The idea of getting back up again, and that’s just how it’s got to be. But the other method, which I think everyone can use sometimes, and there’s some people such as myself, I am a more sensitive person. If someone says no to me around certain topics, especially I feel it’s not something I’m just going to get back up again and keep going with. Sometimes I need to take a little bit of time out. And the method is basically a intentional reflection on what has happened trying to separate out, let’s say if it was an aggressive way of speaking that I heard separating out some of those negative things that really have nothing to do with me from the actual lessons that are there. There’s a concept in kabbala, basically in English, which is going down for the sake of rising higher, that mistakes or missteps or difficult moments actually have within them the best fuel for our own growth.
(20:49)
So resiliency doesn’t have to happen in three seconds. Someone can take one of these mini Shabbat, this mini oasis out of their day, or even just save it for later and do some reflecting. And the best way that that can happen in my opinion, is if people are feeling resourced during that time. And that means things like being well fed or doing something enjoyable or just calming for the moment. So then that reflection can start to happen. So every opportunity, every mistake is an opportunity to grow, but for that takes sometimes longer for people or depending on what they just encountered.
Rob Jolles (21:29):
Yeah, it is true. I bet I can tick, I’m ticking ’em off in my head as you’re speaking. I, I’ll give you one classic example. We had, listen, a little rainfalls in everybody’s life, we’re all going to end up in the same direction, almost at the same place, but we have different places. But some years ago, maybe 15 years ago, we had a significant fire in our home. No one was hurt, no one was harmed. But I think it was one of the greatest things that ever happened to my family, to me and my family. And again, I stress no one was hurt, no one was harmed.
(22:15)
But we learned from it. We were stronger as a family from it. Sometimes I think we work so hard at trying to avoid any type of pain that we can miss the lesson from that pain, that there’s some value to it. It’s str, as strange as it sounds, not quite at that moment. I wasn’t really out in the court thinking how lucky I was while it was still smoldering. But all three of my children coincidentally wrote their essays for college about that exact topic. It was a significant moment for them, but not in a depressing manner, in a reassessing, in a more appreciative. And they found other lessons in it. So I’m really connecting to what you’re saying right now about the lessons we learn in more challenging times. And like I said, we don’t have to rush it while it’s going on, but it’s there. And those are the ones that last, at least for me.
Matthew Ponak (23:21):
Yeah, absolutely. And it can also happen in L really small ways too. I was part of a flood when I lived in Boulder, Colorado, and I remember after how all of our neighbors got together more and got to know each other, and it was really this bond bonding time. But even, I remember teaching a course at this summer camp I was working at a years ago, and I read the feedback after the first week from these teens. And I would sort of been warned that, well, it was really harsh and it was almost like knocked me over. I’d never received feedback like that on anything, any course before or since. And I had to take a bit of time. And I found that, oh, well some of these points are, well, they just signed up for the wrong class clearly, and they shouldn’t have been in mine, but some of them, yeah, no, I could be spending time with more planning in advance and creating a curriculum.
(24:19)
So just in case my activity didn’t go well, I can have a lot that I can bring up as a result. And after that, I incorporated it. I spent more time planning and the classes were going much better, but I had to take a few minutes aside. And for me it was just thinking. I actually remember lying down feeling comfortable, and after about half an hour I had processed it and it felt pretty good. But sometimes people are doing things like journaling or even talking it out to a friend and finding a productive way of working through it because there’s always gems. Anytime we’re faced with that kind of rejection or hardship or just the word no.
Rob Jolles (24:58):
Yeah, no, it becomes some of the most important parts of our lives, as I say, just not quite at that moment, but it, it’s becomes very valuable. There’s another school of thought and this that’s like one A, one B is the school of thought that suggests avoiding a conversation about problems. Is I better than actually having the conversation about the problem dealing with the problem? And I think I know your thoughts on this one, but I, I’d love to hear you talk about that because I think it’s instinct versus logic. I’m pretty sure you’re going to go in a logical direction, but our instinct isn’t quite there.
Matthew Ponak (25:43):
I think in fact, there’s a time for both of those.
(25:47)
And I’ll just go back to this idea of the burnout. If I am in trying to get into that refreshment mode, whether it’s on Shabbat or I’m just, I’ve left my phone at the office and I’m at home and something comes up that feels like a big deal, I might nec not necessarily deal with it right then and there I’ll say, yeah, maybe let’s talk about this in a little while, that if I’m in a really good place and that’s what I’m trying to cultivate in that moment, I actually don’t want to go into the darkness, go explore. I don’t want to descend for rising higher at that moment. I actually just want to transcend it. So that is I think a valuable strategy in the right moments or even just, I don’t have time for this right now. I have another project I’m working on, I’m going to put a pause on that.
(26:34)
But if all we’re ever doing is transcending, it means we’re actually leaving behind these insights that we could be gaining. And if it’s a relational problem, again with someone at work for example, or on a team or a client, and it’s ongoing and we’ve transcended it so many times, we’re actually avoiding the potential solution to that as well and potentially harming the relationship by not actually being real. So it’s really about a balance. It’s either, and it depends on the context. And again, if all we’re ever doing is engaging deeply with everything, we might actually be misspending our time in some regards, but it might be a bit too much as well. These are different strategies for different moments.
Rob Jolles (27:21):
I was raised by a wonderful man but who had some little minor flaws like the rest of us. And one of the ones that he mentored me on was sort of how to take care of those issues with people or disappointment or relationships. And that was, as you were speaking, I just created a name for it. So this is about 18 seconds long, but I’m going to call it the severance method. Just sever it, cut it loose, don’t talk about it, don’t think about it, don’t deal with it, get it behind you as we say. And the unusual thing about that, the good news that is, it actually does feel good in the short term. It feels almost empowering in the short term. The problem is the long term. The problem is what are we actually learning from that? I like where you’re going because I don’t want to be a professional victim.
(28:17)
I think if we don’t deal with these problems, it’s going to recast itself in a different play. It’s going to come up, it won’t be the plumber this time, it’ll be the principal. But it’s just different characters playing the same roles of they’re not good and you are right all the time. And so listening to that feedback as you mentioned and reflecting on thing on problems, I can tell you that I’m proud of the fact that it wasn’t easy for me. It took me into my mid twenties, the late twenties, to realize because I took everything that this guy said as the truth, that one, he didn’t have quite right and thank goodness he was around and we talked about it and he was actually very receptive to where I was going, which was I actually want to learn from it and figure it out and that way I can eliminate it. But that was my journey.
Matthew Ponak (29:17):
And so he received your feedback?
Rob Jolles (29:18):
He did. Sounds like he did.
Matthew Ponak (29:20):
So there we go. That sounds like it came full circle in a way.
Rob Jolles (29:22):
And he lived it, Matthew, he really abided by it. He worked on it. He lived till he was almost 90 years old. And I would say that we got into that conversation in his early seventies. So we had a couple of decades of him not just nodding his head but figuring it out. And it was really cool to watch.
Matthew Ponak (29:48):
Very cool. I like that. Also, because it reminds me of what you were saying about the long game, the short game versus the long game and there’s, or the long term. I think that active grappling with what’s difficult as opposed to the transcending method, it really is about the long term and it can build slowly. And one of the ideas with a temporary break of nourishing time to punctuate that is it’s almost like we can get a sense of what we’re striving for. Even in the midst of that longer game, if you know what I’m saying, that a lot of people imagine themselves, let’s say in retirement or on vacation in Tahiti or wherever, enjoying something that is physically delightful, doing some engaging with something that is beautiful. And that is a goal we strive for and it, let’s say retirement takes all of this time to build up for it.
(30:42)
But what if we could experience the end results, so to speak, or something that feels like that as a regular part of our existence, that is where the long game and the short game come together, that Shabbat consciousness or this attitude of the rest and refreshment is really about feeling good right now and not worrying about the world or our lives or anything. It’s like everything is good right now and that’s the feeling, but it compliments the longer work. It can inspire us to do more. And it, it’s really about having a mix of those in our lives. I think that is one of the things that really brings wellbeing and productivity and insights. And some of my best ideas I’ve ever had have been while in a state of intentional rest and refreshment where I was like, I’m no more work. I’m just going to join myself. And that’s when it comes and they actually really feed each other
Rob Jolles (31:34):
And somebody might lean over and go, well, you were kind of lucky to think that, but that’s not so much luck. You have a method to get there. So to me, that success was predicted in a way. That’s why that’s a man of processes. I like that nutty weekend Wednesday, laugh at it all you want, but it really helped, not just me. My children celebrate weekend Wednesday and I don’t know if we use that term anymore, but I still do. Anyway, I am so enjoying this conversation and I’m grateful because I know I’ve got a business audience that’s listening right now. I know I’ve got a lot of job seekers. I’m 13 years in that space and you’re hearing about resiliency and you’re hearing about a lot of things that you need to focus on. And I think that we’re not, call it what you want, these concepts are invaluable. And I just think it’s really cool that you’ve made that connection and did quite a good job of it. Tell me about some mentors that you may have had along the line.
Matthew Ponak (32:57):
Yeah, well, I’ve had a number of very impactful people in my life. I think one of my, I guess suppose one of my two earliest mentors, my father, he is a man who works very hard. He was a professor for a long time and event later became an arbitrator. He does labor arbitration. And one of the things that he really taught me just by being who he was, was integrity. That he is a man who is reliable and dependable and we all have our moments of saying things we might not wished We have said though, he is quite careful in his speech, but he’s someone who just was exemplified trustworthiness, I would say from a young age. Yeah. So there’s one talking about our fathers,
Rob Jolles (33:46):
Give me another one. Cause our dads are a layup. Well, you know what, I shouldn’t say that. It’s almost disrespectful to people listening. If we are so blessed, then that is true. Give me another one.
Matthew Ponak (34:01):
Well, another one was a professor that I had in my undergraduate training, and he actually was in another department, but I sort of had connections there, we’ll say. And I got into this class, which was a wilderness retreat class for business students. I mean, some of these people, I was in Alberta, some of them were probably going to become oil executives in the future if they haven’t already. And he was taking them, and there’s obviously a lot of things people talk about with climate and oil. And he was taking them to on a wilderness retreat, and he was getting them to do an 24 hours solo in the woods, essentially in the mountains. And it was this very sort of deep contemplative retreat experience. He had a really amazing blend between the practical and the spiritual, the practical and the universal. And had the, the chorus reviews he was getting were saying things like, his name was David.
(35:00)
He actually passed away a couple of years ago. But he people, he changed my life. And it’s helping people connect to really who they truly were so that they could be their best selves in the world. I know that we can have as many tactics we want or approaches to doing the job we are have, but at the end of the day, having a sense of meaning and of purpose behind that is just about equal to all of those other methods, if you will. So it was on that retreat that I first thought about being a rabbi in fact, or at least really consciously. And I think, yeah, he was, there’s really too much to say about the impact he was having on me and the other students. But one of the real takeaways was if we find out who we are and find out what the world needs, we can really find our place in it. And then a lot of the work can flow from that place of passion and meaning.
Rob Jolles (36:00):
Wow. Well, he did a heck of a job then. That’s incredible. Really, look, the book is called Embodied. Thank you very much.
Matthew Ponak (36:11):
Very nice, very nice.
Rob Jolles (36:13):
You’ll have to tell me four times. I’ll get it by and we can find it anywhere. And folks that my drill is get the book, read the book, and then write a nice review on the book because you’re going to like it. And I’ve decided I’d throw out a little extra on this one. If you’ve never written a review on a book on Amazon, which means a great deal to authors, by the way, shoot me an email, rob joas.com, and I will send you a how to write an Amazon review. So we’ll take all the pain out of it and make it nice and easy for you, but let’s get some reviews on this book. Let’s get some action here. And also, Matthew, I believe you might be doing some professional speaking on this topic. Is that correct? You’re starting to think about going down that alley?
Matthew Ponak (37:06):
Absolutely, yes. That is the direction I’m going in.
Rob Jolles (37:09):
Good. So it’s rare. I say, let’s put Rob on the bench for a while. You’ve heard from me, I’ll bet you’ve heard from a lot of speakers. Have you ever heard a speaker like this? Bring this message in and thread the needle on really just some of the bigger picture things that we can do to be more productive, but from a conversation that I don’t think we’re typically having. So I think that would be a very interesting topic. How do people get ahold of you?
Matthew Ponak (37:38):
They can find me at matthewponak.com and send me a message through there. So that’s M A T T H E W P O N A K.com.
Rob Jolles (37:50):
There you go. Perfect. And the book is out, right? It’s at Amazon right now
Matthew Ponak (37:54):
Yep, it’s on Amazon, yes.
Rob Jolles (37:56):
Perfect, perfect. Well, I am grateful to have had this conversation with you. I was kind of holding my breath before we got going, but I’ve been exhaling the whole time. Matter of fact, for me, it actually got emotional a couple of times, and that speaks to the depth of your message. So I’m grateful to have had you on, really appreciate the conversation. Matthew.
Matthew Ponak (38:19):
Thanks so much, Rob. I really appreciate the conversation as well, and I’m glad that we are inhaling and exhaling together because both parts are important.
Rob Jolles (38:28):
There you go. We have a method for it. Well, we’ll do it again as well as we can next time. Everyone.
Intro (38:34):
Until then, stay safe. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please rate and recommend it on iTunes, outcasts, wherever you get your podcast. You can also get more information on this show and rob@jolles.com.