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October 17th, 2022
At last count, there were 2.4 million podcasts, just like mine, each trying to be heard. I’m guessing whatever your business might be in, you aren’t alone at it either… and that’s where positioning and messaging experts come in. Author and positioning and messaging expert Brendan Dell sits down with Rob to help you learn how to stand out in a crowd.
In this Pocket Sized Pep Talk, you’ll learn:
1. How companies should adjust their thinking about how they position themselves in a post-COVID-19 world.
2. How you can determine if your positioning is off.
3. The most important thing Brendan has learned about his profession.
4. How companies can position themselves in a post-COVID-19.
5. How to effectively position yourself and how to adjust your strategy in a down market.
6. High-impact positioning stories, and why it’s important?
Learn more from our guest:
brendan@brendandell.com
Rob Jolles (00:00):
At last count, there are 2.4 million podcasts just like mine. Each trying to be heard. I’m guessing whatever business you might be in, you aren’t alone in it either. And that’s where positioning and messaging experts come in. Let’s have ourselves some pocket size pep talk because today’s guest is an expert in the field and he is here to help you stand out in a crowd,
Intro (00:24):
A pocket size pep talk, the podcast that can help energize your business and your life with a quick inspiring message. Now here’s your host, Rob Jolles.
Rob Jolles (00:38):
Today’s guest, Brendan Dell, is the positioning and messaging expert to top technology brands with clients including Expedia, adp, hp, yc, and many others. His book, the 12 Immutable Laws of High Impact Messaging, shares Rules for Standing Out in a Crowded Market. And that’s why I wanted him on the show because we could all use some help there. Glad to have you with us, Brendan, and welcome to the show.
Brendan Dell (01:04):
Hey, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to the conversation.
Rob Jolles (01:07):
Yeah, let’s mix it up. It’s a pleasure to have you here. Let’s dive on in. And I want to start with your particular niche because it is a little bit unusual with books and stuff. We don’t find them, they tend to find us. How did this topic and this book and space of yours, how did it find you?
Brendan Dell (01:26):
Yeah, so I actually started my career in real estate and I worked for a tenant rep company in la and when you’re early in real estate, your job is basically to go get business. And so what these folks hold me to do was to go cold calling. And to them that meant walking up and down office buildings on the west side of la which really translates into getting thrown out of office buildings on the west side of LA because you’re not supposed to walk around those buildings. So I spent the better part of a year crawling in and out of buildings, getting thrown out and getting nowhere. And that’s like the, there’s got to be a wetter way moment. And then I stumbled across this book on copywriting and I said about to figure out how to do this. I read a bunch of books and I wrote two direct mail pieces and I sent these things out.
(02:21)
They ended up landing, I don’t remember that exact number now. And it was like 50 or 60 million in business for this team, of which I earned very, very little money, just full disclosure. But I was like, whoa, this works. This is a way if you can figure out how to message in a way that’s different and breaks through the noise, this is a superpower. So actually one of the clients that came out of that was a technology company that brought me in and said, how can you help us do something like this? And that set off the whole practice from there.
Rob Jolles (03:00):
It’s wild. I don’t talk about this often, but just how kind of fate steps in, I was a New York Life agent, and by the way, I was the guy doing the same thing you did only with us. We went in pairs just so you wouldn’t run out of the building. You had somebody else had to kind of lean on each other. But I was actually waiting for management in a Monday morning training class with 22 apprentice field underwriters. The phone rang and it turned out that management, the manager, the trainer, the senior manager, they had gone out for an early breakfast and they got double parked behind them. They couldn’t get out. And so I happened to pick up the phone and they said, whatever you can do, do anything. Don’t tell ’em that we’re stuck. Just do something in front of the room. So I had learned a sales pitch called the Live Die quit story, and I had some acting experience and I went, I’ve started teaching it sort of like, okay, we’re going to do these pieces. Where you going to punch it, where you’re going to pull back, where you’re going to pause? And they came in and they went, great job. And let me finish. And I was smiling cause I thought, I know where know what I’m going to do now, I like this as a frustrated actor. I like the feel of being in front of this room in a corporate environment and performing. So again, just a random phone call in a sense, but sometimes you think that’s fate, it just sort of steps in.
Brendan Dell (04:28):
Yeah. Definitely serendipity for sure.
Rob Jolles (04:31):
Yeah. I applaud the fact that, you know, got out there and you banged on doors. I wish companies would understand that there’s many ways to prospect cold calling being one of ’em. I’m not saying it’s terrible, but my dad was a salesman and he told me one time he said, cold calling is like shaving. You do a little bit of it each day. And to me that’s somewhat logical. That’s funny to say. Let’s go out there and just bang our heads into a wall for the next three or four hours. That’s not logical to mayva. All right.
Brendan Dell (05:03):
Well I think you got to take stuff in context too, because these folks were coming out of, okay, when you think about real estate 30 years ago, yeah, there was no Redfin, there was no internet, there was, well, 30 years ago now, there wasn’t any of that stuff. And how did you get your information? You had listings come out via paper that you had to go pick up to see what was coming out, or you had to go physically speak to somebody either in person or on the phone because that was how you were going to reach somebody. So the context for them was they were looking at, and this is part of what messaging does, as well as gets people to think about things differently as they were taking something that for them was effective and they’d seen it as this is the way it’s always been done, so it must be the way that it should be done. And they didn’t realize that actually the world had shifted and things cannot be done in the same way they were 30 or 40 years ago because the world looks very, very different.
Rob Jolles (05:56):
Yeah, I hear you. Well, I’m dragging into my sales board. Let’s drag you back into your world and talk about messaging. Okay, it was hard enough before covid, but now tell me about how companies should position themselves. And I said this in a positive way, post Covid or at least managing Covid, whatever we want to call the stage we’re now. What’s your recommendation to companies in terms of how they should position themselves?
Brendan Dell (06:29):
Sure. So is, it’s a big question, but if I’m going to boil it down, I’ll say this. What you did is actually just the first part of effective messaging, which is you just positioned a world that’s different. You just said to me it was hard enough to get hurt before covid, and now after Covid it’s 10 times harder. We live in this new world where there’s new things that are required to be successful, and if you want to be successful, what are these new things that are required? And so in every industry all the time, there are big changes that have happened or are happening that are shifting the way in which we need to perceive or shifting the way in which we need to behave to be successful. And so messaging against those changes is step one. And I’ll give you an example to make this clear.
(07:21)
So one example of something that I saw a company do recently is there’s a company called Grin that’s an influencer marketing platform. And what you could do is think of, so that that’s clear enough, right? Influencer marketing platform, it helps brands connect to influencers in their particular niche. And there’s of course, many of these companies out there. One way that Grin could message is they could say, Hey, we’re the influencer marketing platform with the most influencers, or we’re the easiest to use, or some other benefit like that. Because what you’re trying to do ultimately in all of this is be famous for an idea. Positioning is ultimately about what’s the recall, what do people know you for? And there’s a lot of research that people basically choose the company that they can recall the easiest. But what Grin did is say, no, we have now injured the creator economy. No, we no longer look to the media, to the news to give us information. We now turn to creators. And if you are going to be successful in this new world, you need to learn how to put an influencer marketing campaign in place. And they’ve created this imperative and change. And so this is setting them apart from all the other companies out there that are trying to come up with me too, messaging,
Rob Jolles (08:41):
It’s, it’s interesting to me because you talk about messaging and trying to stand out, I’m listening to you just going, because I was focusing on, and I’m listening to your answer, I’m listening, I’m going, well, where’s the covid part? And maybe there isn’t a covid part, you know what I mean? For instance, real fast. But when I just started doing virtual seminars, I would lead with pretty much, and I did hundreds of them, and I would lead pretty much with the same thing. I’d say when I’m live, I tend to show up with a jacket on, so I’m wearing my jacket when I’m live, I typically have a cup of coffee, look at me, I have coffee. Why do we have to, what’s the big change here? Other than the fact, obviously I’m muting an audience. And so quite frankly, it didn’t work so well. But I worked with a little laugh box, I created off an app and I said, when something funny happens, I’ll hit the button. So we’ll have that noise too. But in the end, I was trying to make the point at least deliver is why does there need to be a difference other than we’re physically not there. So I’m pushing back on the question a little bit of is there a difference or is it just Covid 19 and we push forward?
Brendan Dell (10:09):
So when I say that you bring up the covid issue, what I mean more is that you identified a change that’s influencing, that’s changing people’s behaviors and that is creating a set of stakes and imperatives for companies to understand this new world and to compete well in the new game they need to play. So post Covid 19, we absolutely, and again, this is just one example of how you might highlight a shift, a very famous example of a brand that did this as a subscription company called Zuora, that’s a multi-billion dollar company that they, a gentleman by the name of Andy Raskin actually wrote a blog that’s a viral blog called The Best Sales Pitch I’ve ever seen, I think it was called. And they, Zora leads with, we now live in a subscription economy, very different than saying we are the best subscription platform and comparing themselves against others. They’re creating an imperative where they are the only one who can fulfill on this promise. And so if that’s not clear, let me know and I can expand. But when I say covid, what I mean is just you identified a change that makes an imperative for somebody to rethink what they’re doing. And that’s why mess. And that’s what you need to do with messaging is create these stakes where people need to rethink the way in which they’re doing the thing that they’re doing.
Rob Jolles (11:35):
Okay, I got it now. All right. Yeah, no, I didn’t that I didn’t get it the first time. I got it the second time. A little slight. I actually came back from Europe about three days ago and I’m a little foggy, but work with me. Work with me, Brendan.
Brendan Dell (11:50):
I’m working with you. Yeah, we’re working on it together.
Rob Jolles (11:54):
Okay. Alright. Well, to me, one of the scariest things in business, have you ever heard the four levels of conscious behavior where you can be unconsciously incompetent, consciously incompetent, consciously competent, unconsciously competent? It’s the four ways that we can mentally live in a sense. And for me, of course, one of the scariest parts is being an unconscious incompetent because you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s right. So how does a company that may very well be unconsciously incompetent in the words they don’t know that they don’t know, how do they determine when their positioning is off? I’m 30 years in business, nobody came up with a sign that said my positioning’s off. How do we determine that?
Brendan Dell (12:40):
So when you are having conversations with customers, do they come with you with a clear understanding of what it is you do and why you’re different? Are you constantly getting into price conversations about can you do the same thing for less when you pitch to them? Do they not have clarity around what you do? Those are all signs that you do not have effective positioning. Ultimately what you’re trying to do, it’s Lyft versus Uber. You’re trying to contextualize value and create a relationship with people so that they choose, they believe you are the only one suited to serve their problems. And so if you’re getting commoditized, your positioning is not as effective as it could be.
Rob Jolles (13:26):
Huh. That’s a very simple answer. It, it’s it. No, it’s true. I think unfortunately many companies don’t know what strengths to draw companies to, they’re not clear on their own messaging. And I say that in terms of, I wrote a piece once called, forgot the exact title, was basically dealing with the sea of sameness. Even Brandon, you have a podcast. I have a podcast. Like I said, there’s 2.4 million other knuckleheads with podcasts. And so in a sense, we’re in a sea of sameness and yet we’re looking to do things that are a little bit different. But that’s the challenge for a lot of companies. We don’t know when our, when our marketing is off. But I liked your response because you’re absolutely right. The sales guy in me says, when I get hit on price, well it’s just a lack of urgency. But maybe I’m getting hit on price because I’m going to see of saying this.
Brendan Dell (14:34):
Price is a function of value, right? And so if people believe you’re uniquely qualified to serve, to solve a problem, and this is the real world, it’s not that you never e even Tony Robbins discounts his tickets. But what you will do is you will find, I’ll use another example from the B2B software space where I operate. There’s a company called Gong that does call recording that. And they pioneered, basically what they do is they allow you as a sales leader to understand what separates your high performers from your low performers. You understand how much an individual rep is talking, what kind of language they’re using when they bring up price. And you can coach your reps up based on this call intelligence. Now, if you’re in that space, most people simply believe that Gong is the category leader there. When they come into gong, they already, they know what they’re getting.
(15:31)
They don’t compare them against alternatives. And they generally simply want to purchase Gong, even though there’s a bunch of other people that do this. You want to be the person that people come inbound to already believing they need you. There’s a thing that’s in psychology called anchoring bias. And it basically says that once somebody has changed their mind, or excuse me, once somebody has arrived at a conclusion that even in the face of overwhelming evidence, conflicting evidence, people will not change their minds. And we can see this all over the place in our society with politics and whatever. So if somebody has, through the process of educating themselves about possible solutions, created a mental position or framework for themselves that you are the person who can solve their problem, price will not matter. All of these other factors will not matter. Cause they’ve already made that decision for themselves. And even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it’s very difficult to change their mind. So that’s why the second, I mean, you’re in sales, you’re well aware of all the stats that say how the first company to help a customer is most likely to win that customer and all those sorts of things. Right? All that enters into it.
Rob Jolles (16:44):
Yeah, well, not only am I in sales, but I actually wrote a book called How to Change Minds. So there you go on top of that topic. And it’s really interesting when you get into the political part of this, because I was asked by my publisher once, this was when the first Trump election, and could you write an article about that? And it was challenging. How do you change somebody’s political mind? Because as you say, they’re just so dug in. But I offer this back to you and truly, I’m not an expert on changing political minds, but the one thing that I did come up with, and Andrew don’t necessarily apply this to business as much as to some of these other areas like this is okay, you want to sit down and change somebody’s mind and their politics one rule. And that is you have to sit down and be willing to have your mind changed.
(17:43)
And that’s unfortunately where the problem lies. I come in, I go, all right, I’m going to change Brendan’s mind, but I have no intention of changing my mind. I’m going to steamroll your mind. Yes. And no wonder we are just battling each other, but if you and I sat down and let’s make ourselves rational for a moment, and really went in with the condition of I’m, I’m not only going to listen to you, I am willing to have my mind changed, put me on a lie detector. The needles aren’t moving. I am telling you the truth. We could get somewhere, but unfortunately that’s a tough position right now to be in.
Brendan Dell (18:19):
Yeah. When you just identified another important consideration for people who are trying to contextualize how to message for themselves and why this is so important. And that is that human beings are not particularly rational in general. They are overwhelmingly emotional creatures. And the most effective messaging is going to appeal to people on an emotional level that it is not going to appeal to people on an irrational level. And is B2B is the space that I overwhelmingly work in. And this is a conversation that you have many times where people will say, well, this is b2b. It’s different. We have to appeal to people on a rational level and how they’re going to improve their jobs. There was some folks named, it was the lesson were lessen Benet, I believe. And they did a study called the Long and the short of it, and it was what makes people buy, they did a consumer study and they did a business study. And which advertising is most effective overwhelmingly in both categories, emotional advertising produced higher outcomes than rational advertising. So even though we like to think of ourselves as rational, we generally are not.
Rob Jolles (19:30):
That’s interesting because if you study Myers Briggs and Disk and all the personality models, what you’re saying makes sense because first, while you were saying, I was like, oh yeah, well what about analytical people? But then I thought, well, oh yeah, but what percentage of people are analytical? It’s a percentage. It’s not an overwhelming percentage. It’s out there. I don’t see a whole lot of ’em, but they’re out there. Well,
Brendan Dell (20:01):
This is an example of, so there are analytical people, but even those people tend to anchor to their own biases. And you can see this in the medical profession a lot, where if somebody believes in a particular modality of treatment, for example, and treat, and then research comes out that has conflicting evidence that says, actually it’s a different way. You’ll see big pushback in the medical community that says, oh no, this study must be wrong. They indict the study. And there’s of course differences in study design. But yeah, you will see this across, there’s a really good class called Your Irrational Mind, which is by a Harvard professor named Steven Novella, and he walks this in great detail, the ways in which we trick ourselves into thinking that we are rational people and are overwhelmingly not.
Rob Jolles (20:56):
Right. And you are working on some courses. Is this covered in your course?
Brendan Dell (21:00):
Yeah, actually we do in my course Billion Dollar Pitch that if folks are interested, they can find it on my website, brendandell.com. But we talk a lot about this and the course walks through the not only essentially one how and why do people buy things, and then two, what are the elements which are relatively predictable to create a pitch that’s going to be compelling to people and get them to do the thing that you want them to do. Spend some money.
Rob Jolles (21:29):
Right. So got you, got the course, you’ve got the podcast, you got the book.
(21:34)
Yeah. Yeah. You are very clearly messaged. You got to walk the walk, I guess. Okay. In selling, and I get this asked me a lot, well, what’s the most important thing that you’ve learned? And as a salesman, as a sales trainer, and it’s very elementary, and yet it’s just pervasive. But people don’t naturally instinctively ask questions and listen, they’re in a personalized met who hasn’t heard that? That’s a pretty good idea. People think they’re doing it, but they’re not really doing it. And for years, I brought out tape recorders and then I brought out micro-cassette recorders, and now I have apps, I have people load up, but I don’t actually have ’em go ahead and have conversations and you just track it. Now it’s proven. What about your profession? What are a couple things that are instinctive, let’s say, but not just logical, that we’re just off on.
Brendan Dell (22:38):
That we’re just off on. Okay, well, we’re just off on. So A one of the things that companies are often compelled to do is look for cuteness to be different or to look for cleverness. And clarity is often a much better strategy, almost overwhelming. Just clearly stating who you’re for the problem you solve and how you help is going to be more effective than trying to be cute or clever. A second piece of this is people often overly kindly, well in kickoff meetings with teams, they’ll be like, okay, this is Brendan and he’s a messaging genius for the following reasons. And the reality is that as much as that feels good, just not the case. What you pointed to great messaging is great listening. It’s going to customers, it’s knowing, it’s asking the right questions, it’s listening to what they say, and it’s using their own words to craft the messaging. It’s not about some mystical art or some creative stroke of genius that results in actually a lot of the campaigns that people know, like the Yo Chiro Taco Bell campaign. Yeah. That everybody’s familiar with. That guy got fired. That campaign didn’t do anything. It was totally ineffective.
(23:59)
The C M O who ran that was fired on the back of that whole thing. And so it’s memorability is not what you need fame around the ability to solve a problem. Yeah.
Brendan Dell (24:15):
So those are the two.
Rob Jolles (24:15):
Okay, good. All right. Two for me, two you. Here we go. But I’ll tell you, we crossed paths a bunch of times, and one of ’em that you hit on, which I’m smiling, was how many times I have to tell my clients, I don’t break it down to cuteness or anything like that, but from a sales perspective, because we study decision cycles and we study decision points. So we are studying the prospect and the customer before we just go slamming in sales ideas. And one thing that we see just coming back at you, and like I said, I think this is where we crisscross, is the fact that companies always seem to want to trumpet the benefits of their solution, which people don’t connect with nearly as much as identifying with the problems that they’re living with. That solution may just well take care of, but it’s the problem that we identify with, not really the solution and just professed.
(25:06)
But I didn’t get the job, by the way, but I was years ago interviewed, I was still working for Xerox, interviewed by a brand. It was a very new company that was selling products on television, and that was kind of a new thing. It was. And they wanted me to work with their OnAir talent, and they just wanted to, every time they wanted me, when they got phone calls to ask people, what are you getting the saw for? And then, how many do you want? And how pretty is the saw? And I was kept saying, no, I want to know what they’re using right now that isn’t working, and how dangerous that 25 year old electric saw is that got passed down in the family. And they just couldn’t make that connection. I actually lost the kid, lost the client. Not exactly name in the client, but I think he can figure out who it is. But I still sit back and smile and go, I had it right. I just unfortunately couldn’t get them to believe. But I am think the good websites maybe and you are the expert, but to me again, the good websites are picture are giving you a picture of the problem that you can associate with not necessarily the solution. Am I on base on this one?
Brendan Dell (26:26):
So in unsatisfactory answers, I think it depends. I think it depends who you’re speaking with in the context of what you are messaging to.
Rob Jolles (26:34):
Okay, all right. You don’t have to agree with everything. How dare you how dare you. Thought that was a layup, but that’s why we get a guest like Brendan in here. He’s telling it like it is, okay, coming down the hot, the home, oh, where’s our time going? Let’s move if you want. No, I, I’m thoroughly, by the way, thoroughly enjoying this conversation because I am off base and I’m learning a bunch from you, and I frequently can kind of nudge in my world with sales and say, yeah, I got it. But you’re coming from a different angle and it is a little bit new for me. So we were talking about the down market, how does your strategy change in a down market if we’re going to position ourselves properly, how does that change?
Brendan Dell (27:31):
So to your point around pain and problem, I think it’s an understanding of the reality that your particular upstream of all of this is your customer. You need to have clarity around who you’re going after, why you’re going after them, and how you’re uniquely in a position to help them solve a problem. And the problems that those people are facing are going to change in a market like this. So your message needs to change with that problem. And that’s really what it comes down to, is understanding what that change is for them and messaging to them appropriately. People, you see people moving to figure out how to do more with less you. You see, people could rattle off all the different ways in which this is affecting people, but that’s the most upstream part of it all.
Rob Jolles (28:24):
Okay, so I haven’t exactly been back a thousand with you, but if I play it back and say that one size doesn’t fit all and we have to be willing to change and conform, two, as I say, sort of play the ball where it lies golf and not just get stuck in our ways, but be willing to be flexible in a down market. Do I have that right Brendan?
Brendan Dell (28:57):
I agree. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
Rob Jolles (28:59):
Folks, you can’t see. I’m sweating, I’m sweating, I’m sweating hard with this guy.
Brendan Dell (29:05):
No sweating, no need, no sweat, no sweating.
Rob Jolles (29:08):
The whole sweat out of me. That very rarely happens. I think I may not be feeling well, but no, you, you’ve got some sweat coming out of me.
Brendan Dell (29:14):
See, I’m not intentionally, I apologize if that’s case,
Rob Jolles (29:19):
Hey, you want to know something and you’re a podcast host, I think the greatest gift a guests can give is get the host to sweat a little bit. I sometimes get frustrated when everybody agrees with me. Well, you’re agreeing with some and you’re nudging some other stuff and I appreciate it.
Brendan Dell (29:35):
What do we have if we don’t have constructive dialogue? Right? That’s bingo how we all push forward.
Rob Jolles (29:40):
Bingo. Yeah, bingo. Yeah, yeah. Alright, I got a question and a half left for you, but alright, I, I’m looking at you, I’m just reading up on you and you write about high impact positioning stories. All right? First of all, tell the audience what that is and then tell me why that’s important.
Brendan Dell (30:00):
Yeah. So again, positioning is fundamentally answering the question, what are you going to be famous for? What are you going to be known for? And to go back to that same study by lessen Benet, it’s two gentlemen. When they looked at what was most indicative of a brand’s success, their ability, it was fame. How famous were they as the leader of a given category? And this is true in b2b and it’s true in b2c. So what you’re trying to do with positioning is say, how am I going to be famous and not famous in a broad sense like Brad Pitt famous or whatever the cultural reference point is now, but famous to the people that matter to you. If for me, I work with tech brands, so how am I famous to tech brands? What do they know me for? And that’s what you’re answering with positioning. Yeah, that question.
Rob Jolles (30:53):
Good. All right. Last question for you mentors. I don’t always ask this question, but I’m always surprised at the answers that I get. So is there a mentor or two that stands out for you? Because this, you do have a very unique niche and we got your story of how you got in, but is there a mentor or two that shaped us a little bit for you?
Brendan Dell (31:19):
Man, I don’t have a great answer to this question. Honestly.
Rob Jolles (31:22):
You sweat a little bit, how do you like it. Welcome to the party.
Brendan Dell (31:27):
I think honestly, most of my mentors that maybe this is a sad answer if it’s anything, but most of my mentors have come, I’m trying to think of people in person. Actually, one of the clients I’m working with right now is a GA gal named, and I wouldn’t call her a mentor, but I, she’s, her name is Rose and she’s the founder of this company called Suzi, and she was a C F O at Uber and a variety of all. She, she’s got very impressive background. She went to m i t, very, very bright. Anyway, I feel like I’m learning a ton from her and getting pushed in new ways. So I think that’s been really gratifying. But then in terms of mentors, I think I’ve learned just so much from different books and things like that over time. I think that’s some of the biggest sources of mentorship. I’m doing air quotes here that I can think of.
Rob Jolles (32:20):
All right, well I want to keep the heat on you. So other than 12 immutable laws of high impact messaging, which everybody’s going to go by and write a review on now. Yes. Give me a book title,
Brendan Dell (32:33):
Man. I could give you tons. I think one of the first books that I read that I thought was really is a hundred year old book by a guy named Claude Hopkins called Scientific Advertising, which is, it’s just, it’s a hundred years old, but the principles of it are still relevant and it teaches you a lot about how you should think about marketing and advertising and psychology and these sorts of things. Another one that I found really illuminating is Sapiens, which is a more recent book about how people essentially evolved and it helps you to contextualize how and why people construct meaning and why society looks the way that it does. And it helps you think about then what you’re trying to, all of marketing is trying to create change. Somebody’s already doing something and you’re trying to get sales is the same and you’re trying to get them to do something else to make their life better. But you have to overcome this trust gap to get them to get there. And it helps you to understand how people construct meaning and get you thinking about then how you can influence that meaning for what you are doing.
Rob Jolles (33:43):
Excellent. Good. I appreciate that. Alright, where can listeners find and learn more about you?
Brendan Dell (33:51):
So the podcast is Billion Dollar Tech. You can find that on iTunes, on YouTube, on all the good. We’re newly on YouTube so you can now find it there, Spotify, et cetera. My website is brendandell.com where you can sign up for the newsletter to get those podcasts directly. And then the book 12 Amenable Laws is Amazon everywhere books are sold.
Rob Jolles (34:15):
Perfect. And because that name Brendan can be spelled a few different ways, that’s B R E N DA N D E l l, Brendan Dell, one word. Yeah.
Brendan Dell (34:25):
Perfect. Thank you.
Rob Jolles (34:26):
No worries. Well listen, I’ve enjoyed it. I need to take a shower, but I’ve enjoyed it.
Brendan Dell (34:32):
I hope not. It’s, it’s been a pleasure. I, I’ve really enjoyed it.
Rob Jolles (34:36):
You got to get to know me. Once I get my teeth into something, I don’t let it go. So don’t worry about it. Well, listen, I appreciate you being on the show. I really have to tell you, I, I’m surprised at how much I learned from you because I thought coming into this, that’s fine. Well, I’m got a pretty good fix on this and now my instincts, were often a bunch of different areas and that’s why I like getting guests like you on the show. That’s what it’s about, podcaster to podcasters. So I’m grateful and really think you did a great job. Really grateful you were on the show.
Brendan Dell (35:12):
Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s been great.
Rob Jolles (35:15):
Well, we’ll do it again as well as we can next time. Everyone. Until then, stay safe.
Outro (35:22):
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please rate and recommend it on iTunes, outcasts, wherever you get your podcast. You can also get more information on this show and rob@jolles.com.